Our El Moro/LCWP ride 8/14

[TURNERob]

We had a really nice ride \/

 

[dstepper]

The pictures are very recognizable what trails you guys are on. Riding them is one thing posting poaching is another. I wonder if the rangers monitor this website?

 

[i am dino]

..

 

[i am dino]

The pictures are very recognizable what trails you guys are on.  Riding them is one thing posting poaching is another.  I wonder if the rangers monitor this website?

Come on now Dean, talking about our pictures being on a potentially "poached" trail seems to draw more attention to the issue than just posting a picture of someone riding over a downed tree or a rock...

Now about those rangers, how about taking the $10 per car they rape people for parking there in the lot and using that money to fix that effin' mudbog when climbing out of Rattlesnake. Obviously the rangers know about that and they haven't done squat to fix it. Today we saw about 6 different truck tire tracks driving through it. Someone removed the wood planks that were there so people could ride over the bog without getting stuck in that mud. Now people are forced to traverse the mudbog by going off to the left side of the fireroad (when climbing),  further inducing the erosion of the hillside all because the rangers or who ever is in charge of park maintenence hasn't done squat to resolve the issue of the mudbog.

 

[JamR]

Riding closed trails is not a small problem, and most of the informed land managers are very in-tune with all of these web-sites, and very familiar with the closed trails. I guarantee they are reading these posts and sharing it with the powers that be.

The problem is that this is the precise type of bad image that is used against us to eliminate us from trails, and it’s also pretty disrespectful to the people who have spent countless hours working through the proper channels to try to get some of these trails and areas legalized.

The bottom line is that even if you don’t get caught; just the knowledge of the people who are watching knowing that you are out there does enough damage, and makes it that much more difficult for the rest of us to work towards more access. Not to mention that if you do get caught, the fine can be pretty stiff. Also remember that once the County Rangers receive their powers of citation, it won’t just be three or four times a year when the Sheriffs are brought into the park for some special operations that you will need to be concerned with. The Rangers are Peace Officers, and will have the power of citation so enforcement will be stepped up considerably.

This will have an added negative effect on our sport if the number of actual citations starts giving clear evidence of a problem with a specific user group; and unfortunately one of the remedies that have been used in other areas is to eliminate or restrict that particular user group.

No matter what you think of the county; the bottom line is that there are over 700 miles of natural surface trails within Orange County with a vast number of miles of legal single-track and technical trails; with plans to open more areas in the future. There’s simply no reason to ride closed trails, and IMO if you have not ever taken the time to send an e-mail to the land managers, talk to the Rangers one-on-one, or show up to some of the public meetings that are afforded to us to speak your mind and bring these trail issues up; you really have no reason to gripe.

Please stick to the open legal trails and get involved in the proper process if you want to see some of these closed trails be brought into the system. I’ve been biking long enough to understand that in the long run, our bad image will always work against us; and a major step that we can make towards cleaning up our image is to simply stick to the legal trails, and work cohesively as a group towards trail access. The bottom line though is once a trail is deemed closed and has gone through all the channels of the Land Managers review; the closure needs to be respected regardless of how much that particular trail is liked.

Mountain bike access to wilderness areas is not an inherent right, and we need to be sensitive of that. Access is gained through hard work and perseverance through the proper channels. We need to start becoming part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Just go out and have fun, but please keep it legal.

Thanks,

Adam

 

[i am dino]

I feel ya Adam, however, what about the "protest ride" at Aliso Woods back in November when more than 30 some odd riders rode down HIGHLANDER at right in front of a couple of rangers parked down there on the vehicle access rode? In theory, that would disrespect al the hardwork that the MTB advocates have done, correct?

I'm sure FXRob will remove this thread very shortly.

 

[Evel Knievel]

I feel ya Adam, however, what about the "protest ride" at Aliso Woods back in Novemeber when more than 30 some odd riders rode down HIGHLANDER at right in front of a couple of rangers parked down there on the vehicle access rode?

In theory, that would disrespect al the hardwork that the MTB advocates have done, correct?

I'm sure FXRob will remove this thread very shortly.

Many of us chose NOT to ride highlander , hawkdrop or whatever you want to call it, on the day of the protest ride.

I'm behinfd you 100% JamR.

 

[TURNERob]

Didn't mean to piss everyone off here so I deleted the thread and pics. Have fun out there.

Adam, who can we write/call to about the giant mud bog on the fireroad after Rattlesnake that has been there for a good 4-5 months now. It is pretty much impassable and there was wood placed across in one section that has since been removed.

Thanks for your concern everyone :wave:

 

[JamR]

I feel ya Adam, however, what about the "protest ride" at Aliso Woods back in Novemeber when more than 30 some odd riders rode down HIGHLANDER at right in front of a couple of rangers parked down there on the vehicle access rode?

In theory, that would disrespect al the hardwork that the MTB advocates have done, correct?

I'm sure FXRob will remove this thread very shortly.

Many of us chose NOT to ride highlander , hawkdrop or whatever you want to call it, on the day of the protest ride.

I'm behinfd you 100% JamR.

I think this post needs to stay up to keep people informed. This issue is not simply going to go away.

As far as the protest, there three major differences. The protest was mostly in part due to the news of the Montage expansion and secondly in light of the stall of the RMP process that was started and stopped by the County. The riders who chose to traverse the closed trail did so with several open points.
1. They fully advertised their intent to the county knowing full well that they could face citation and spoke with the Rangers (and were willing to accept a citation in protest)
2. They made all the protest participants aware that there would be two trail options (one legal and one closed), and made it clear to all the participants why the event was taking place.
3. Most of the riders involved also followed through with some involvement in getting the RMP process back on the table.

The basic intent of the whole event was to let the county know that the biking community simply wanted the proper process to be followed for the Montage and the RMP at Aliso-Woods.

There is a major difference between an organized and well advertised event like this, and riders on a regular basis simply poaching closed trails for fun.

The riders who constantly ride closed trails are not participating in an organized protest, and are clearly not following any proper process or proper channels to make changes for the status of these trails. Simply riding closed trails on a regular basis for fun, and flaunting it in the faces of the land managers is a detriment to our sport.

Again, there are many avenues that are available to get involved in trail access issues. Write letters, get to know the Rangers and communicate with them, step up to the plate and chip in at trail work sessions, become park docent, show up to the trail meetings, etc....

If you want a specific trail reviewed for legal access; work for through the system, but in the mean time respect the closure and stay off the trail. Eventually all of us will pay the price for riders poaching closed trails and closed areas.

It's a big issue and it's not just going to go away.

 

[JamR]

Didn't mean to piss everyone off here so I deleted the thread and pics.  Have fun out there.

Adam, who can we write/call to about the giant mud bog on the fireroad after Rattlesnake that has been there for a good 4-5 months now. It is pretty much impassable and there was wood placed across in one section that has since been removed.

Thanks for your concern everyone  :wave:

Stop in at the Ranger Station and talk to them. Also try contacting SHARE Mtb club who takes care of most of the trails there. If there is still water there this long after the rains, there might be a bigger underlying problem causing the water.


Unless you talk to the land managers who are in charge of park, you'll never know; and it's difficult to gripe intelligently unless you know the facts.

I'll call the park office tomorrow myself and see what I can find out; and I'll post my findings tomorrow night.

See ya

Adam

 

[TURNERob]

Stop in at the Ranger Station and talk to them.  Also try contacting SHARE Mtb club who takes care of most of the trails there.  If there is still water there this long after the rains, there might be a bigger underlying problem causing the water.


Unless you talk to the land managers who are in charge of park, you'll never know; and it's difficult to gripe intelligently unless you know the facts.

I'll call the park office tomorrow myself and see what I can find out; and I'll post my findings tomorrow night.

See ya

Adam

Yeah there is obviously more water coming from somewhere because in the past week it has actually gotten worse. For awhile it looked like almost all of the puddles were drying up, and there was quite a bit of wood placed over certain spots. I rode it Wednesday after work and it was pretty dry, then today it was very muddy and some trucks had gone through it and created some very deep ruts.....the road is very torn up to say the least.

As far as this post goes, one would assume that it doesn't take posts like this to "inform" the land managers/rangers that these trails are being ridden. We personally witnessed a good 4 other riders riding one of these trails after us. Not saying in anyway that this makes it ok, but these trails are obviously being used quite a bit. I will in the future refrain from posting any pictures that are on non legal trails, however if these trails being ridden are such a problem then it would seem that some more affirmative action should be taken by the authorities. There are no signs/blockage of any sort on one of these trails, and in fact the rope that goes along the ridge of the beginning of one trail is mysteriously missing in that section. The bottom line is that people are going to keep riding these trails. Was it right of me to post pics of us riding these trails, NO. I really didn't think it would cause such a stink, and the fact that certain people recognized the features of these trails obviously points out that they have ridden these trails themselves. So to those who were offended I apologize and maybe I'll run into you on the trail sometime.

 

[JamR]

The county simply does not have the personnel to take continuous affirmative action on these trails, but when they do it's decisive and it works. But it also points out a very negative aspect of our sport.

As far as signage, the basic concept at most parks is simple. If a trail is included on the parks trail map and is signed with a proper sign; it is a legal trail. If there is no sign and the trail is not shown on the parks maps, it's more than likely a closed trail.

No land management agency wants to litter their park with dozens of "closed trail" signs and wire fences; plus these steps too often get vandalized by the trail users which is costly for the land managers.

Even one of IMBA's basic rules is to ride on open trails only, and as far as Aliso-Woods, El Morro, Laguna Coast, and the entire Laguna Greenbelt; the legal trails are properly mapped and marked.

When in question, please err on the side of caution, and stay on the known signed legal trails. It's better for all of us.

 

[TURNERob]

I understand the sign/no sign rule, but really what citation can be issued? Are the rangers really with no power in these situations? If you were caught riding an illegal trail could one be given a citation even though there is no sign saying the trail is closed? I've been riding El Moro on a very regular basis for quite a few years and have talked to a few people who have been "caught" riding on illegal trails (mostly in LCWP) and not one person has told me they've been given a citation. They were just told to get off the trail. I'm not trying to stir this pot up anymore, but just trying to understand what the legal consequences would be if caught riding a trail with no signage stating it is illegal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that it is ok or that I have an "I don't care I'm still going to do it" attitude......but with no signs can/will you be given a citation legally? Seems to me like there would be some legal loop holes in these circumstances....am I wrong?

 

[i am dino]

EK, like yourself, I chose NOT to ride down HIGHLANDER at the protest ride. I am behind Adam as well, he is highly respected amongst many of us and like Rob said, it wasn't the brightest thing to post the pictures of the trails. We did see many other riders on the trails ridden today.

Hypothetically speaking, if a newbie is riding and see's a trail entrance, and has never been to the park where he/she is riding before and decides to head down a NON MARKED trail, should they be held accountable for knowing that the trail is not "legal". Without proper signage there is no way of knowing that they trail is legal or not. Often times the maps that are provided aren't that clearly marked and are difficult to read. It would be very easy for the uninformed rider to accidently ride down an "illegal" trail.

 

[chumbaracing]

As a lawyer, I'd like to chime in on this one. As crazy as it seems, ignorance of laws/regulations is not an excuse to violate them. In the newbie case, unless it was a pure impossibility to find out whether the trails were legal or illegal, the trail user would be responsible for figuring it out the status of the trail, despite how onerous finding out may be.

But like you say Bret, Adam is probably the most knowledgable person with the most time and energy invested re: trail issues here. I think he was just saying for the most part we should do what we can to comply with rangers and the process.

Btw, Bret, Rob, or Adam, any of you up for Big Bear lifts this weekend?

 

[LBmtb]

Alan, you can open up another thread if you want about Big Bear.

I wont delete this but will close it. I just dont want a constructive debate to be dragged on and become something other then constructive. Good information here for future reference though.

:wave: