Ride Report Mt Waterman thoughts and input

[dstepper]

Thank all ya all for coming up for my B-Day ride at Mt Waterman. Roberto, thanks to you and your staff for the great time today and the present. The ticket girl said that we had 27 people in our group and maybe 6 other riders there that were not with us. Of the 27 people that showed up not one person brought a downhill bike.

Part of my reason on going up to Waterman was to offer the owners some constructive criticism, so I hope others that came today give a honest appraisal. There were many among us that have been MTBing many years and half of the riders today called the San Gabriel’s their home turf. The overall impression from many today was that there is a ton of potential on the mountain. That said my biggest fear was confirmed today and that is the condition of Waterman Trail. 90% of Waterman Trail can hold up to abuse but some of the things I saw today deeply concern me. On my last run I stopped and took half a dozen pictures of problem. Remember this is only after a couple weeks of use from the lifts. If the damage continues at this rate we will not be able to ride up the whole of Waterman due to the blown out corners. I have pictures of people completely leave the trail to go around a switch back to miss the rock garden, people riding up the embankments and shuffling the bench cut back down onto the trail, riders going faster than they can control their bikes and going off the trail. I would hope the ones that caused the damage would go back up the trail and repair the damage to the trail but I believe it is to late as the Sierra Club was all over the hill today. Right now the damage is slight and easily repaired. I equate the damage to making a divot when golfing, we all charge a corner to fast, drift off the trail…ect. But have the respect for the trail to stop and go back and repair the damage, it only takes a minute to fix it with your shoe and tamp in back down.

I hate to say this but if riders of the lifts can’t change their mindset from riding a ski area where for the most part it is ok to pick new lines lockup your brakes in turn to make berms to riding a multi-use singletrack then I believe the staff of Waterman Ski should declare Mt Waterman Trail out of bounds and take away their lift pass. Waterman Trail is a gem that does not deserve the treatment of those that can’t respect her. If you go not have the skills to stay on the trail get them before coming back. If you just have not rail corners to make berms, cut switch backs, and create new lines, please stay on Waterman property. The possibilities are excellent for us to have a gravity playground, don’t give those that want us off the mountain on bikes ammunition to close trails and give the good folks at Waterman a bunch of grief.

Dean

 

[dstepper]

Rant over now a couple of pics:

 

[art23rockpile]

Today's excursion to Mt. Waterman was a ton of fun (thanks Dean for arranging it). The staff there was very friendly, positive, and hard-working. The couple of defined trails down the mountain in the ski area were a blast... steep and loose. There are numerous natural rock features (rolls and drops). Overall the place has a lot of potential.

The Mt. Waterman trail was looser than i've ever ridden it. There was much evidence of blown out turns (esp. switchbacks) and alternate lines to avoid certain trail features. My recommendation to the Mt. W staff would be to keep the trail well maintained and/or discourage lift users from descending it.

 

[Pain Freak]

Sorry Ol Buddy but I disagree. Yes, I seen the blown out corners and I seen some trail wear and tear but far less then I've seen on trails predomiately used by equestrians. This type of ground might not be condusive to a high volume of trail riding as it takes very little for the trail to start slipping down the side of the mountain. This would also happen with just hiking but to a lesser extent. I could be wrong but I'm thinking the trails up there should be left alone and not available to shuttling. For the most part I thought the riders did an excellent job of riding the trail. Is it worn and abused? Yes, it is but wouldn't take a whole lot to bring it back to it's original state. Is it sustainable? Not in my opinion but I'm by no means an expert.

If this type of riding is to continue there, some people will have to take ownership of the trails and do on going weekly maintenance.

Other then that it was very fun riding up there.

 

[Gnutz]

Dean, Thanks for putting this together. Maxwell, Thanks for the ride.

I had a good time today, but it is hard not too when riding a bike (out of control and sliding all over the place). The lack of trails made for a day of adventuring verses hammering out run after run. I had watched the video on skimtwaterman.com and knew what was to be expected.

One thing that was a huge surprise was the guy giving rides to the top in the truck. I agree with Dean that this is not a good idea. I also think its lame to cut corners and switchbacks, one unnamed person did this today behind me and passed about four of us at once and it was obvious others had done it before. I wanted to pass at one point on the way down but instead stopped and let the riders in front of me get further down trail before I continued.

As for the Waterman area not the Waterman trail, it needs work. Lots of it. There IS tons of potential. I look forward to watching it AND helping it progress.

 

[SlickShoe671]

OMG... :-s

 

[maxwell]

We Had A GREAT Time!

Well said Dean.

I believe there is a lot of potential for some fun & tech trails at Mt. Waterman.
The staff was GREAT! No long lift lines, good burgers up top, and a FUN crowd to ride with.

Mt. Waterman

Got LIFT?

We rode down the Waterman Trail the first time down with the group. What a fun trail. And like Steppie said, the corners are already showing some wear.
I know part of it is the riders, with another part just being the type of dirt, and time of year. That is not an excuse though. It is definitely more of an XC type ride down, and should be kept that way.

That being said, it was a freak'n roller coaster of a good time! Everyone had big smiles on their faces at the bottom!

Jake and Chris had a blast today, with most of their rides heading down Waterman.

Joser sighting!

Geranimo!

Pain Freak

CPATNOTCRASH!

Burner got HOT!

The Queen. Her smile says it all!

Matt had told me that Chris and Jake had stopped for a minute, and they weren't too far back.
Well, from where I was sitting for the pics, I could see the guys coming in. Once Chris rounded the corner, I gave him a bit of a "YEAH CRHIS" shout. I nearly scared him off of his bike!

YEAH CHRIS!

Jake was right behind him, and having a blast, on his Kona Blast!

That's my boy!

The weather was perfect. Not too hot, and lots of blue skies!

Beautiful!

After the first run down, us "older" and a little more adventurous guys did a little exploring, and even started a new line, with the OK from one of the guys watching while riding the lift.

First run down the steep stuff involved just heading down the Black Diamond trail. It was pretty much a narrow, steep fireroad that took us back to the bottom of the lift.

Second time down, we headed down what looked like the main ski slope. That was interesting. Steep and real loose!

Gary dirt skiing!

Is this view cool or what!

Cool. Very, very cool!

I had been eyeing what looked like a line that would cross back under the lift, down some rocky sections, then back across under the lift again, to end up at the bottom.

It worked out most of the way down, then things got a bit out of control!

Whats my name again?!

That's right, I crashed!

Burner, who got to see me just after I wadded up, Scott and I believe quite a few others got to see me at my best. Standing in a gully, under the lift, fixing both of my brake levers! Jake and Chris even passed over with Jake yelling, "Dad, how'd you get down there"?!

I had spotted another cool line, with a lot of potential from the lift. So next time down, we went and checked it out.
It was a cool chute next to a huge rock formation, and between some trees. We all four tried it, but none of us made it down clean.

Lim, getting his DH on!

After that run down we headed back up, had a burger, and back down to that same line.
Dave had passed on the food, and had started working on the line. He had seen the same potential for fun that I had, and we started to make it work.

Joel heading down after a bit of Dave's work.

Gary hitting the line.

And then it was my turn.....

Can't slow down! Aghh! Too much front brake!!

Bah ha ha! No crash that time! Some how I saved it!

We worked a little more making the line go across the rocks, over to the other side, where we plan on it hooking back up with the Black Diamond trail.

Craig and Dell rolled up just in time to try out what we had done, then help with some more line building.

Craig rolling down.

Dell rode it with no problems!

We talked about heading back again next Sunday to do some more work. The only problem being with no rain, and the dirt being so dry, earth work just won't hold up right now.

We headed down from there, all of us ready for some food, and the drive home.

Mt. Waterman has huge potential for sure. Big thanks to those involved inviting us out this weekend!

Another beautiful day on the trails in the books!

 

[gooseaholic]

Dean
In the most respectful way this troubles me. They open a mountain to ride and then expect some type of cohesive agreement to be Safe for fear of a lawsuit. You take me and my bike to the top of a mountain and expect me to refrain from letting my hair out. In so cal everything is so hard to get around the rules and have fun. Its like here is a steep mountain and big drops, but sorry: you have to go around them. Its so f-ing confusing.

 

[earthquake jake]

that was a great ride today thanks Dean

 

[Drop D]

Just curious, whats wrong with the line on the right that I marked with red? won't the trail hold up better with all that rocks? seriously, I would prefer to take that line rather than the easy left line :?: why move the rocks to the side?

 

[Gnutz]

Just curious, whats wrong with the line on the right that I marked with red? won't the trail hold up better with all that rocks? seriously, I would prefer to take that line rather than the easy left line :?: why move the rocks to the side?

Go for it. Don't forget the video camera :lol:

 

[maxwell]

Just curious, whats wrong with the line on the right that I marked with red? won't the trail hold up better with all that rocks? seriously, I would prefer to take that line rather than the easy left line :?: why move the rocks to the side?

Well, we left those rocks alone, so I'm not sure what rocks you're assuming we moved from up there. :-k
And I'm sure you know that pictures don't always show the difficulties of a line. Kinda funny that you would call it the "easy" line without being there to ride it.
We thought the line between the rock and the trees looked like fun, and the best way down.

It's a very cool place with lots of good things that could happen.

 

[Drop D]

Go for it. Don't forget the video camera :lol:

sure! not trying to be cocky or an ass... but I was just curious of why not take that line... true I don't have an Idea of how steep that part is... that's why I asked :?: so please, try not to be sarcastic

Well, we left those rocks alone, so I'm not sure what rocks you're assuming we moved from up there. :-k
And I'm sure you know that pictures don't always show the difficulties of a line. Kinda funny that you would call it the "easy" line without being there to ride it.
We thought the line between the rock and the trees looked like fun, and the best way down.

It's a very cool place with lots of good things that could happen.

the sexy dude in this pic is moving the rock

 

[dstepper]

Dean
In the most respectful way this troubles me. They open a mountain to ride and then expect some type of cohesive agreement to be Safe for fear of a lawsuit. You take me and my bike to the top of a mountain and expect me to refrain from letting my hair out. In so cal everything is so hard to get around the rules and have fun. Its like here is a steep mountain and big drops, but sorry: you have to go around them. Its so f-ing confusing.

Respectfully Mr. Armchair quarterback, it is you that misses the point, which you would not have if you had joined us today. I will also bet that you have never been on Waterman Trail. Waterman Trail is a legacy trail (sometime between the years 1883-1889) outside of Watermans Forest Service Lease. It would not see high speed big bikes without the lift. Waterman Trail is a extremely easy climb by San Gab standards so there really is not the need of a lift to ride it.

I further clarify, I have no complaints about what people do on Waterman's property. I do not do that kind of riding but I totally support those that like steep loose riding....I believe they should have a place to get their gravity fix. I truly hope that some order is implemented in the ski area with some designated marked runs. Now is the time to help build what you want out there and not let it become a free for all. Please just stay within Watermans Property if you can't ride Waterman Trail like the XC Trail that it is.

Dean

 

[gooseaholic]

Point Taken Dean.Oh and the headline was thoughts and input. Well that was mine.Wrong or right. Oh and BTW the line you all took through the pine needles where there is no trail seems to nullify the point. Dont get me wrong big D, im not attacking you. My comments are all based on what I thought was legal. Man your getting grumpy with age.J/k:lol::lol::lol:
That said, I see this if its legal.The Big bike line.

 

[maxwell]

No worries.

Dave's moving some of the rocks from down low to use for backing against the log that we moved down from the slope.

That line actually doesn't look bad from the pics, but it was looking pretty rough from up top. :lol:
Kanga also pointed out the rock section a little farther to the right of the pic. The rocks leading to the slab rock, then roller on down. With them being spaced out just far enough to catch a wheel and stop it, none of us tried it.

We also worked a bit on a big log drop, and roller. They were going to take more time then what we had.
With some time and work, and going through the right channels of course, Mt. Waterman could be a real jewel.

 

[Drop D]

^^^ Thank you sir! pictures you posted makes me want to go check that trail out... since mueller tunnel is closed... it should be perfect timing to snoop around! :wave:...

 

[kanga]

A great day and a lot of potential up there. But that's the key word of the day, as Dean and I and others all discussed.... potential. The lifts are there, the terrain is there, but the trails aren't. Yet.

I rode up with some other the OTB/STR bi-posters (Piranha, MTBSki, UPSEd) and met Ron and JoeTruth when we arrived. We took a first run down the Waterman trail and spent the rest of it on the resort. According to the GPS we did 7 runs for a total of 13 miles. The runs are short, and with exploration time, we didn't get in as many as one would expect with a more organized park setup.

Still, it was great to ride a new place, to imagine the possibilities, and hang out with a bunch of cool like-minded people.

Here's the scoop, as I saw it. There may have been other trails or lines that we didn't find, as we were just out exploring.

The Waterman Trail is a sweet multi-use trail. Not appropriate for downhill-only use. Too many hikers, and since it borders on wilderness, is likely to be a big red flag for the whole hiking community to see. The pickup shuttles from the top of chair 1 to the to the top of the Waterman trail, while convenient, prevent the weeding out of those with a downhill-only mindset. The hikers we came across (first run of the day) didn't seem too happy to have so many mountain bikers coming down, and I heard that as the day progressed there were more and more hikers who were becoming less and less happy. They were quite adamant and inquisitive about whether we'd ridding within the wilderness boundaries. There is already some damage to the Waterman trail as Dean mentioned. Waterman trail is 3 miles with 1250' of descent, 125' of ascent, plus the road ride back (.7 miles, 125' of ascent).

The Quail Trail, which veers off to the left right at the top of the Waterman trail was my favorite, while it lasted. It is a sweet trail with some loose, technical, exposed switchbacks and grown-in double-track that could eventually be sweet single track. But then it ends at the top of a short ski-run, which you take down to a fire road. Trail is 3.25 miles with 1200' of descent, including a .7 mile road ride back.

The Fire road (not sure the name, and there are others). Fast, fun, a few potential launch spots, a few potential wall rides (but really loose and sandy, so not sustainable). It puts you out on highway 2 .6 miles east of the lifts near the trailhead for the Waterman trail, so it's a short road ride back to the lift. It's about 1.7 miles long, dropping about 960' vertical. Then the road ride back.

The "Expert" trail, which comes off the fire road. Really fun, with a few deep sandy turns that keep things interesting, and a couple of steep sandy sections that have you ruddering your bike instead of steering it down the face. This one drops you right back at the chairlift and is a lot of fun. It drops about 800' and is one mile long.

The super-steep double-track to the face. About a quarter mile down the fire road there is a line that drops one in to an old double-track that traverses out to the face fun under chair one. Steep and sketchy, but fun none-the-less. It's not marked.

The face runs (Wallbanger). There's a few lines becoming established that essentially come down the ski runs along chair one. It's a free-for-all, dropping 750 vertical feet in a half mile. Really sandy and loose, near impossible to ride anything but fall-line as the front wheel wants to slip sideways as soon as you have any angle across the face, and buries itself if you try to countersteer off the fall-line. It wouldn't take much work to bench in a series of traversing lines with nice bermed turns at each end. Potential!

The top. Above Chair one, by the reservoir and the lake there are lots of boulder sections that could make some fun play spots, but we didn't spend too much time up there looking around. It's a short (just under a mile) of rolling climb to get to the top of Waterman and Quail, and that whole area is ripe for your more obvious man-made features. Could be really fun with work. There were a few other fire-roads up there that we didn't ride. It seemed if we were going to have lift-access, we wanted descent, and these fire roads at the top seemed to be just rolling terrain, though I could be wrong.

The valleys between the ski-runs are full of potential lines, and Maxwell and others made their own in a few places. It doesn't take much work to do so and the opportunities here are great. There are lots of very large boulders and rocks, little chutes and downed trees that could all be incorporated into some really fun natural features. The sides of the valleys are steep enough to provide a really good transition lz for drops and jumps, as long as the runout could be cleaned up enough to establish a good flow.

I like what I saw up there for potential but it's going to take some vision and organization to come up with an overall trail plan, and a lot of shovel work to make that happen. I don't see why it can't happen in the future.

As it stands at the moment Mt. Waterman is for the adventurous, those who like to explore and look for possible new lines, those who like to make their own lines, those who like it steep and loose. It doesn't yet have the features that would really warrant a big bike (though the face runs would be fun on one) but a sturdy all-mountain bike seems to be about the right rig. The only real beginner-friendly trails are the fire road and the Waterman trail, both of which put on highway 2 for .7 miles.

There may be other options if the other lifts were to open, as we didn't get to see what was possible from those lifts. On the Quail Trail we rode past the other two lifts.

The scenery and atmosphere of the place is really nice. It was quite warm up there, but nowhere near as hot as the lower elevations and the city. I hear the burgers at the warming hut were pretty good, and several were stoked to get a cold beer there as well.

Thanks to Lynn and Dean for organizing the day, and getting us all onto some new terrain for a change. I had a great time, and look forward to seeing Mt. Waterman live up to its potential. That's one thing there's no shortage of there.

Now for the good stuff.... pics:

The terrain from the lift:

Vehicle Shuttle to the top of Waterman Trail (included, but not a good idea):

Rock formations:

First run Crew:

Waterman Trail:

JoeTruth:

Ron:

Piranha and Ron

45% Grade:

Ron:

UPSEd on the Expert Run:

Who's gonna drop in first?

Quail Trail:

UPSEd:

Art23Rockpile gets some air:

Road Ride Back:

Discussing the day:

 

[kanga]

No worries.

Dave's moving some of the rocks from down low to use for backing against the log that we moved down from the slope.

That line actually doesn't look bad from the pics, but it was looking pretty rough from up top. :lol:
Kanga also pointed out the rock section a little farther to the right of the pic. The rocks leading to the slab rock, then roller on down. With them being spaced out just far enough to catch a wheel and stop it, none of us tried it.

We also worked a bit on a big log drop, and roller. They were going to take more time then what we had.
With some time and work, and going through the right channels of course, Mt. Waterman could be a real jewel.

I have a few short video clips of the first attempts at that line. They're on the OTB photo gallery site at the bottom of the page at http://otbmbc.smugmug.com/gallery/9059793_ufBj4#P-6-15

I didn't post them since it was too early and nobody had figured out the line yet, but they are available for the viewing.

 

[Mt Waterman]

Thank all ya all for coming up for my B-Day ride at Mt Waterman. Roberto, thanks to you and your staff for the great time today and the present. The ticket girl said that we had 27 people in our group and maybe 6 other riders there that were not with us. Of the 27 people that showed up not one person brought a downhill bike.

Part of my reason on going up to Waterman was to offer the owners some constructive criticism, so I hope others that came today give a honest appraisal. There were many among us that have been MTBing many years and half of the riders today called the San Gabriel’s their home turf. The overall impression from many today was that there is a ton of potential on the mountain. That said my biggest fear was confirmed today and that is the condition of Waterman Trail. 90% of Waterman Trail can hold up to abuse but some of the things I saw today deeply concern me. On my last run I stopped and took half a dozen pictures of problem. Remember this is only after a couple weeks of use from the lifts. If the damage continues at this rate we will not be able to ride up the whole of Waterman due to the blown out corners. I have pictures of people completely leave the trail to go around a switch back to miss the rock garden, people riding up the embankments and shuffling the bench cut back down onto the trail, riders going faster than they can control their bikes and going off the trail. I would hope the ones that caused the damage would go back up the trail and repair the damage to the trail but I believe it is to late as the Sierra Club was all over the hill today. Right now the damage is slight and easily repaired. I equate the damage to making a divot when golfing, we all charge a corner to fast, drift off the trail…ect. But have the respect for the trail to stop and go back and repair the damage, it only takes a minute to fix it with your shoe and tamp in back down.

I hate to say this but if riders of the lifts can’t change their mindset from riding a ski area where for the most part it is ok to pick new lines lockup your brakes in turn to make berms to riding a multi-use singletrack then I believe the staff of Waterman Ski should declare Mt Waterman Trail out of bounds and take away their lift pass. Waterman Trail is a gem that does not deserve the treatment of those that can’t respect her. If you go not have the skills to stay on the trail get them before coming back. If you just have not rail corners to make berms, cut switch backs, and create new lines, please stay on Waterman property. The possibilities are excellent for us to have a gravity playground, don’t give those that want us off the mountain on bikes ammunition to close trails and give the good folks at Waterman a bunch of grief.

Dean

Thanks to all that came up on Sunday and thanks to Dean for arranging it
1st time I skied Mt Waterman was 1978. I was 13. I loved that mountain from the first time skied it. I’ve hiked it skied it and biked it. 1st time I road Mt Waterman trail was in 1988. I was racing for Montrose Bike shop. Angeles Crest was my back yard. I grew up in La Canada. I tell you all this so you will know that I have a love for the mountains and I respect them.
Fast forward 20 years and I am part owner of Mt Waterman. We need mountain biking so that we can stay in business and hopefully recoup the 7 figures we put into restoring it. XC bikers don’t pay the bills. Downhill bikes do!
This year there will not be much we can do but for next year with a little money and the help of the Mountain Bike community there is a lot we can do. For starters with can contribute a portion of our proceeds to trail maintenance. MT Waterman trail would be first in line. As we develop trails on the hill we can put a weight restriction on bikes that go up to MT Waterman trail.
We are still trying to get a response from the FS for our multi- purpose lease on what we can do and what we can’t do. They have not rehired since the beginning of the year. After we get a response I will set up a meeting where all that would like to give so input can.
In the meantime, we need the business so please spread the word.
Thanks for your support,
Roberto Martinez
MT Waterman