I thought they closed the entire park once that video surfaced.. if after that video they still only closed one trail, yes that is actually a bit laughable..
Mountain Lion at Whiting
- Thread starter BigTex
- Start date
I don't think that a lion should be removed from a wilderness park, because said park is near homes/kids or because I ride there often.
I do think that in this case, the consistent unusual behavior merits removal.
Maybe there should be a ban on homes built near wilderness and industrial should be used as a buffer?
As far as the young lion - I figure that finding that canyon full of deer/water and then being encouraged to leave, is like taking my kid to an all you can eat ice cream place and then encouraging them to leave after a spoonful.
They'd put up a fight too.
I do think that in this case, the consistent unusual behavior merits removal.
Maybe there should be a ban on homes built near wilderness and industrial should be used as a buffer?
As far as the young lion - I figure that finding that canyon full of deer/water and then being encouraged to leave, is like taking my kid to an all you can eat ice cream place and then encouraging them to leave after a spoonful.
They'd put up a fight too.
Waldo
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What do you suppose would be more suitable than Whiting, where there's year-round water, plenty of food, and lots of cover?
And has been posted here and discussed on FB, etc., there are significant obstacles to relocating a mountain lion.
Normal lion: Leave it be.
Lion showing no fear of large groups or rangers shooting bean bags: Action must be taken.
I respect the wilderness and love animals. I want to see them left alone as much as possible, and protected as needed. In this case I think that's exactly what's been done.
dirtvert
Whine on!
^^ Bob- the average adult male usually establishes a range of over 100 square miles (Whiting = about 2?!) and eats one deer/week. That cat wasn't retiring to Whiting.
As for lions not showing much fear of humans. They often don't, which can be disconcerting. But I've been stared down on the trail by elk and moose, and they're not even top predators! Many of the wild animals in OC are nonchalant around humans--you can practically pet the deer in Aliso. We saw 2 rabbits at the bottom of Willow yesterday that were 10 feet away and seemed oblivious to us (I wouldn't recommend relocating them, although President Carter might disagree).
And if relocation isn't a good option for lions, then they really should have waited a few days before rushing to what is essentially a death sentence for the cat. Pretty much all top predators are vastly misunderstood. Hell, we don't even have any truly wild buffalo left in this country. Mountain lions are probably doomed in the long run.
Believe what you want. I believe I'll have another beer.
Happy trails.
VV Great moderating/reading comprehension, Gene. I'm sorry you have to read ALL the posts! It appears that they closed the park late one day, set up a trap, and removed the cat around 4:30 in the morning. That's not exactly what I was proposing. I say good day sir...
As for lions not showing much fear of humans. They often don't, which can be disconcerting. But I've been stared down on the trail by elk and moose, and they're not even top predators! Many of the wild animals in OC are nonchalant around humans--you can practically pet the deer in Aliso. We saw 2 rabbits at the bottom of Willow yesterday that were 10 feet away and seemed oblivious to us (I wouldn't recommend relocating them, although President Carter might disagree).
And if relocation isn't a good option for lions, then they really should have waited a few days before rushing to what is essentially a death sentence for the cat. Pretty much all top predators are vastly misunderstood. Hell, we don't even have any truly wild buffalo left in this country. Mountain lions are probably doomed in the long run.
Believe what you want. I believe I'll have another beer.
Happy trails.
VV Great moderating/reading comprehension, Gene. I'm sorry you have to read ALL the posts! It appears that they closed the park late one day, set up a trap, and removed the cat around 4:30 in the morning. That's not exactly what I was proposing. I say good day sir...
Last edited by a moderator:
genusmtbkr5
STR Moderator
They did close the entire park and searched through the night. Even used helicopters during the search. Some people on here don't seem to read ALL of the posts.
dcrfx
Member
This from the DFG website FAQ on lions seems to be inconsistent with what they are planning to do with this animal:
Is it possible to find a home for the mountain lion in a wildlife sanctuary?
When a mountain lion is declared a public safety threat, the DFG’s goal is to eliminate the threat in the most humane manner possible. Capturing a wild animal that is accustomed to traveling great distances and confining it to a relatively small enclosure is not a humane option. (my bold added)
I realize they had little option but to remove that cat from Whiting, as there would have been great public outcry had they not.
But I'm struggling with why they would not have GPS/collared it and relocated it (esp given the above FAQ). I realize there is small chance that a relocated young male will survive in another's teritory, but at least it could have gone out somewhat naturally and fighting and doing what it was meant to do, or maybe took over territory from a declining male (and they could have tracked it all with the GPS to learn more.) Rather, it gets life behind bars (which as I think Doug already voiced, is a death sentence for a lion).
As an animal lover it's just sad to see that cat in a cage...
Is it possible to find a home for the mountain lion in a wildlife sanctuary?
When a mountain lion is declared a public safety threat, the DFG’s goal is to eliminate the threat in the most humane manner possible. Capturing a wild animal that is accustomed to traveling great distances and confining it to a relatively small enclosure is not a humane option. (my bold added)
I realize they had little option but to remove that cat from Whiting, as there would have been great public outcry had they not.
But I'm struggling with why they would not have GPS/collared it and relocated it (esp given the above FAQ). I realize there is small chance that a relocated young male will survive in another's teritory, but at least it could have gone out somewhat naturally and fighting and doing what it was meant to do, or maybe took over territory from a declining male (and they could have tracked it all with the GPS to learn more.) Rather, it gets life behind bars (which as I think Doug already voiced, is a death sentence for a lion).
As an animal lover it's just sad to see that cat in a cage...
because the gps program isnt like lindsay logan's ankle bracelet.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/26/tracking-a-big-cat-researchers-follow-tagged/
its a limited program to study mountain lions, all of which have been fully allocated. even if they had an extra one, its not designed for what you intend to use it for.
take this how you want, my friend who works with the seabass hatchery program in
newport beach coordinates with the dfg. when he asked about this, he was told the ml population is currently at a high point. we had a displaced young lion killed in santa monica earlier this year, another killed on the la freeway last year as they presumably searched for their own territory. both didnt end as well as this.
they have the lion. if an opportunity comes up, i doubt they would hesistate to load it in a truck, let it go, as long as it can be done safely. as it is, its acting abnormal, whether that assesment is final, i dont know. letting it go immediately would negate them trapping it in the first place.
in a perfect world, we could allocate space and resources to these beautiful animals.
I'm an animal lover as well, and especially a cat lover. We have had cats as pets in our lives for many many years and I love them.. I look at a wild cat and always see a little of our domesticated cat in them (and vice versa) but we're getting a bit ridiculous on this one.. for those who are currently losing sleep over seeing this cat in a cage, would it have been better if the cat had jumped into a backyard and taken out a toddler playing, or maybe if he had attacked that guy filming him? Would there still be the same outpouring of sympathy for the cat? I think it's easy to feel bad for the cat when he did nothing wrong.. but they captured him to further prevent that from happening.. for those who think his behavior was normal, how many times have you seen a cat like that up close in heavy traffic daytime hours?? I've ridden these trails for quite a few years and have yet to see one, and I think most can say the same.. maybe not everyone, but most..
dcrfx
Member
Said in my post, they had to remove it from Whiting, there wasn't really a choice for them given the actions of the cat and the circumstances. My point was why not try to relocate it rather than ship it to a "sanctuary" (which dfg itself says is not humane). Surely not losing sleep (because of this anyway).... just my thoughts and opinion re after it was captured.
understood, and i respect that.
not at you, but i thought id say a few things in support of the dfg having worked with them during the public hearings on marine protected areas. they dont always do the right thing (imho), but those guys are underpaid, under funded, under staffed, under armed, and well intentioned proponents of our natural resources.
patrolling thousands of square miles alone, with little more than a handgun, against mostly armed poachers and pot growers, isnt an easy job.
it would be great to see that lion back in the wild. just to put this situation in perspective, on an annual basis, the dfg exterminates about 30 mountain lions a year as part of depredation requests.
if it wasnt for the media attention, i think the filing of a formal request, proof positive of a nuisance and they wouldve shot that lion instead of capturing it. this episode ended better than most.
http://www.mountainlion.org/Community_Conservation.asp
dstepper
(R.I.P.) Over the hill
Two weeks ago on Ridge Park Road there was a tracking truck scanning the Turtle Ridge area of Irvine Open Space. My feeling is that we are not being told the whole story about numbers of lions amongst us. I have seen cats in places the county and state will not admit they come into. Maybe in is time to have a good trail, dog when riding the National Forest.
Aviatrix
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No, those guys are looking for "illegal" MTBers going down the hiking only trails
Irvine PD is also out there with an MTB-mounted patrol tandem on many nights...started increasing patrols once school let out. Last year there were a few small fires caused by kids "smoking" back there and all we need is another grass fire that gets whipped out of control through that area...ran into them the first Tuesday night after the OTH series took the break and they said that with so much trail use up there within City limits, any hint of a fire could be instantly dangerous to other park users.
With the # of cameras up there that catch wildlife of all kinds for surveys, as well as trespassing MTB'ers and hikers in closed areas, they have yet to see a Mtn. Lion...and I have yet to see a picture of one posted from there despite everyone and their cousin rocking the helmet cams...besides, the water and food sources are all right next to Shady Canyon Golf Course...that's where all the bobcats, coyotes, deer, rabbits and squirrels are. We're not allowed close to the golf course so there's no worry.
it sucks to see the lion get caged and punished, but this cat was probably trouble in the making. Yeah of course no one in here wants to see anyone get hurt let alone a child. I think what some people in here are trying to say is that we are constantly encroaching (tollroads, tract homes, shopping centers) into the wilderness and taking away more and more land for these animals to live in. what do you expect? what do you expect when you move into or hike/bike in these areas? We are pretty selfish sometimes , we dont want our pets to get hurt, we want it to be safe when we bike/hike. people want to live next to these wilderness areas without the animals/dangers that come with it. I dunno...i guess no one will ever agree on this
Tedroy
Active Member
I agree, but most dogs able to fight off lions are not very trail worthy, at least not for long rides.
It might be more of a sacrificial sort of thing. I ride with my dogs, and they ain't fighting off anything.
I worry more about rattlers when they're with me.
dstepper
(R.I.P.) Over the hill
My thinking is that cats being ambushers and opportunists is that the dogs senses would alert us before the ambush thus heading off any problems. In my past life I used dogs often to hunt and sheep/cattle dogs are fast and don't take huge risks. They are yappers and herders rarely getting close to danger.
Abui
Active Member
Putting the lion back in the wild is a death sentence. Dominant lions take the best habitat as their territory and if another lion is not a female ready to breed it will be killed. Lions distribute themselves according to dominance and food sources. If you follow the history of lions in the Santa Monicas you'll see a long history of lion killing lion. A lion that wanders into "our" territory is likely the weaker lion looking for a new home. You can shoot him now or let a bigger lion kill him. Giving him a home in a cage lets him live but not naturally. "Survival of the fittest" means there will be a loser.
sasquatch9billion
Active Member
Can you share some of your sighting stories?
I went to elementary school at Harbor View in cdm and remember we got locked down one afternoon because supposedly there was a mountain lion on the playground. I also remember a couple of older hikers pointing out a lion to me in Chino Hills about 12 years ago. It was just laying under a tree minding it's own.
dstepper
(R.I.P.) Over the hill
Not stories just quick sightings. 5 years ago El Moro close in the creek bed between BFI and I think I can. 4 years ago Chino Hills ridding down Raptor saw one down at the bottom of the trail near the windmill again near a creek bed.
Then there are the numerous sights when I logging and lived on the ranch in Gualala and Philo, in Mendocino County. They where always taking sheep from the ranches. I used to drift fish the Gualala River during Salmon season and when you drift fish you don't make any noise so it was very common to come around a river bend and have puma sightings.
Then there are the numerous sights when I logging and lived on the ranch in Gualala and Philo, in Mendocino County. They where always taking sheep from the ranches. I used to drift fish the Gualala River during Salmon season and when you drift fish you don't make any noise so it was very common to come around a river bend and have puma sightings.