You Knew It Was Coming, Carbon V10 (merged threads)

I can attest to Carbon being strong. Very strong.

I have a carbon XC bike that I have been using for all my riding. I have done some decently sized jumps with it and some decent drops (4-5ft range). I know that is not very big, but this was on a carbon XC bike! 100mm travel. It has held up again and again. I also beat this thing up flying down rock gardens and have crashed on multiple occasions and it is still going strong.

If something design for cross country use (made of carbon) can stand up to the punishment I have put it though (and its over 2 years old now too), then I would trust something design for that kind of abuse.

Another thing, have you seen the Boeing dreamliner? Would you fly on it? I would and it is mainly composite materials. Don't say oh its just flying it doesn't feel many forces. It does and needs to be very strong. Carbon is a great material and certain properties can be added to it to give it a greater hoop strength too, so it can even be strong around the circumference.

 

I'd be more concerned about the fact that the 787 doesn't routinely get side impacts from trees when it get's squirrely in mammoth pumice.

but I digress, yes the carbon frames are great if properly made. I had a friend take a ball-peen hammer to a GF superfly carbon. took a solid 10-15 whacks before it yielded. but then again, you can ride a dented aluminum frame (depending on the dent location and severity), but not a cracked carbon one. it's a give and take comparison between the two.

In all honesty, I'd be more likely to accept a carbon frame like the GT one. made to be stronger, with a similar weight, as opposed to lighter with the same strength. that just sounds like a better idea for a DH frame to me...

 

Carbon V10

Thought this might be of interest to some of you. Santa Cruz is pulling out all the stops this year

Santa Cruz Carbon V10

 

Man, thats slick. Looks much sleeker than the aluminum.

 

see, santa cruz knows the strength of carbon fiber!

 

Carbon fiber rims, sweet

 

wow that thing is sexytime

 

looks flexy

 

Thats what she said.

 

Aux contraire! Aircraft fuselages are subject to tremendous amounts of stress. Every time a plane goes through a pressurization/ depressurization event it's known as a cycle, fuselages only have a service life of so many "cycles". If you remember back about 20 years ago, a 737 was flying near Hawaii and the top of the fuselage, just behind the cockpit was ripped right off the airframe. The plane was able to land safely but unfortunately a stewardess and I think a few passengers died. The cause was due to fatigue for exceeding the amount of "cycles" the airframe was designed for. Another example is if you've ever taken a close look at a large jet at take-off from the front or behind, you'll notice that the wings curve upward (most obvious at the wingtips), this is too highly stressful on the airframe!

So, what does that have to do with bike frames? Some Aluminum frames will eventually crack and or break due to the frame being subject to so many "cycles". Some happen sooner due to the user being excessively hard on the frames and some happen from unavoidable stress risers brought on by impacts/scratches. A small scratch on a frame in a highly stressed area will leave little time before a catastrophic failure. This is why most frame manufacturers will not warranty a frame that has been refinished. This is the reason they use paint stripper on aircraft when refinishing, because even the smallest scratch on the surface (brought on by sanding, if they did use something abrasive) would lead to a stress riser and inevitably compromise the integrity of the thin skin of the airframe.

Carbon fiber frames are a little more forgiving in this area, they will "flex" a little and return to the normal shape/size, whereas Aluminum you only get so many cycles out of it. Aluminum also has a grain structure, (just like wood) and if you've ever tried to bend a piece of Aluminum improperly you'll break it in half very easily. Carbon is made up of multiple layers (utilizing a lay up menu) of zero degrees, ninety degrees, plus forty five degrees , and minus forty five degrees, respectfully. It is in this "ply orientation" that you can achieve unsurpassed strength!

In conclusion, (it's getting late) carbon fiber is to Aluminum what Aluminum was to steel many years ago. When Aluminum frames first came out everybody ridiculed them, sure, some broke and some didn't. There was a learning curve there and eventually they sorted them out. The same is true with the carbon, five years from now, possibly a majority of the frames will be carbon and Aluminum will be outdated. The carbon will be affordable and we will have some new, super exotic frame material on the horizon, it's inevitable, it's called progress.

 

Dirt Mag posts Update Link

Here's more pics and info on the Carbon V10 from Dirt Mag.

http://dirt.mpora.com/news/santa-cruz-carbon-v10-4-part-2.html

Also a quote from Steve Jones on the comments section. Interesting musings...
"jonesdirtmag
May 7th, 2010 at 11:03 am
watch out for Syndicate shoot out in Lousa in one of next issues of Dirt. Full freelap. Amazing racing. Gregory in a dress.
Looks like the new V10 is going down well then. When you see this bike for real it’s an improvement visually over the old V10. More importantly its good to see a company developing a bike over many years. Any of the Syndicate will tell you that the V10 has steadily improved over the years…is it nine years now? This is no ‘bright idea’ as we have seen plenty of recently, this is a bike that works, and its fast as well as the pro’s that ride it. Weight wise Rick Clarkson (Peaty’s mechanic) tells me that it weighs in a shade under 37 on scales. Thats pretty god for a bike this size. One of the most telling things though is its quietness. Four years ago Peaty and his team had pretty noisy bikes, these though are something else…silent. as for comments on times….Greg, Gracia and Bryceland were all on 2.49sec at Lousa yesterday, Peaty 3 seconds up. Maribor is going to be interesting!"










Check out the stripes on that saddle! Arc-en-ciel.

 

of course jeff. Like I said, there are plusses and minuses to all material choices in frames.

you're preaching to the choir though. I'm 2 years into a BS in aero, and I know my fair share about fatigue, materials properties, carbon layups, etc.

I was more making a joke that you don't see people tossing 787's into trees at high rates of speeds. theyre cool planes, with plenty of advantages over aluminum ones.

and with regard to layups, you can change the direction (bias) of the fibers in a layup (and make combinations of them to yield different characteristics). when you're making a bicycle frame, and weight optimization is a priority (as it seems it is with santa cruz), then there will be ways to load the frame that it will not like.

I in no way doubt that santa cruz has done their homework and designed the frame fine (or will have designed it fine by the time it's available to the public). the thing I'm concerned about for ANY carbon product is who is doing the layup/fabrication.

It's a lot like welding a metal bike. in order for carbon to perform it's best, it needs to be very carefully laid up. that means very precise control of epoxy/hardener ratios, proper wetting out (so as to not have too much or too little epoxy), proper layup scheduling (putting the right plies in the right place at the right time), proper compression (need to press the layers together rather tightly to eliminate air bubbles, gaps, etc). there's a lot of things to go wrong.

this is more the reason why I'm skeptical of some carbon bikes. I've seen some sketchy stuff go down in the cycling industry (and I've not even been here that long). When I ride, I need to know that I can trust my equipment. I just want to make sure that santa cruz has their ish together before I'd drop any coin on a frame.

in conclusion, I have no problems with carbon frames. they're a good idea for certain applications (not completely sure DH is one of them yet, at least at my level of competition). there are drawbacks, but that goes with aluminum, steel, ti, etc frames as well. I just want to make sure that manufacturers know what theyre doing before I trust my life by cruising through a gnarly rock garden at high rates of speed on their carbon DH sled.


oh, and I don't have any worries about aluminum on aircraft wings. those things are strong!
[youtube]sA9Kato1CxA[/youtube]

edit: just noticed that';s the 787 wing. this is what I get for trusting youtube to actually read my search as 777...

 

I'm sure they are using "pre preg" (where the resin is already introduced into the cloth, for those with no experience with "pre impregnated" material) graphite material these days, hell, we were using it 20 years ago, so I don't think the epoxy/catalyst mixing ratio or the wetting out of the cloth or lack there of, even come into question. The "air bubbles and gaps" you mentioned are commonly referred to as "voids". Laying up carbon is a time consuming process with plenty of chances to screw it up, and in the bagging if you don't allow the bag enough movement when it gets put into the autoclave, you will surely have a potential for voids.

Congratulations on your 2 years of schooling, but, until you actually have hands on experience with lay ups and the processes involved I don't think "preaching to the choir" is a proper metaphor.

There will be a "learning curve" for all these carbon frames, some manufacturers will employ experienced workers and some may try and save money by having inexperienced employees do the work. The cost saving way may eventually bite them in the arse. I'm in no way saying Santa Cruz, or any manufacturer for that matter is using unskilled labor.

 

Nerd Alert!!!!!!

 

I would not worry too much about the carbon fiber frame from Santa Cruz. IIRC, I have only seen one thread on *MTBR about a broken Blur LTC and that was from a frame which fell down a cliff quite a ways. Even Dave Turner is looking to use carbon in the near future. Looks like its hear to stay folks.

 

Man... the things I knew 2 years into a BS. Might as well have dropped out of school and started engineering right there!

 

I don't get why it's so heavy still. They got carbon wheels, a frame that should be under 9lbs, boxxer world cup, light weight brakes, where is the weight coming from?

 

Still running an Aluminum rear end.

Carbon wheels are strong.....not neccesarily lighter.

 

Still there isn't anything heavy on that bike and the frame is pretty light if it's still close to 2lbs lighter then last year. And the wheels are 1550g that's really light for DH.

 

you kinda made my point. yeah, theyre likely using prepreg, but I was just saying that there a A LOT of ways that a carbon layup can awry (as you also pointed out).

I also helped build a full carbon RC flying wing for a school contest/project. it was pretty badass, actually. great fun, and we didn't even getta use the prepreg. just sayin

but still, we're getting into a pointless argument. talk to me about it in person next time I see you and we can keep the boards clutter free. :beer:

mark, I'm not too surprised by that weight. You have to consider that it's peaty's bike they weighed, which is monster-sized. most weights you see claimed on the frames are usually the (quite a bit smaller) mediums. carbon or not, bigger bike = more material.

951's at 9lb frames are coming in right around the 37-38lb mark with similar builds. also check the coil shock. they may have been stating frame weights with the air vivid just to show off the new shock (but I don't know for sure)