or wait 9 months to have a surgery like in other countries.... more access = less quality. Its a freeway. I would love for the government to ration my care.....
You nailed it. I have a few employees who CHOOSE to cash out their SEP-IRA contribution every year and take the huge penalty. Yes, they drive newer trucks than me. The same employees can't come up with 50% matching funds for family health care. Yes, they have nice jet skis and fly to Mexico and beyond every year. Of course there are sad exceptions to my personal observations, but I believe a LOT of folks choose not to insure. Hey, nice $4,000 mountain bike dude.:?: Yes, I had a bad day at work - luv ya all!
we have some of the poorest quality--from infant mortality to senior care--of any of the industrialized countries. i know plenty of people, just in newport where my ex is a p.t., who go to other countries for their surgeries. the care is better and, even including travel costs, they save money.
This is a true story. I write medical device and pharmaceutical patents for a living. I don't think I have yet written a patent on a potential pharmaceutical compound that has ever made it to market -- it is simple a numbers game. They invest a lot of money. It takes nearly 7-15 years to get it from the experimental compound stage to FDA approval. The most recent figure I heard was that ever successful drug costs a drug company 750 million to one billion dollars. It is even harder for the smaller, start up companies. These guys go for years scraping along and making their families sacrifice to try to put something they believe in on the market. Many of these companies last a few years until the money runs out, even if they have a great product. They drive beaters and their wives figure out a way to make all the ends meet... Once in awhile, after many attempts, these serial entrepreneurs finally hit it big. I for one am happy when they rake in the cash. They have gone for years without. While the rest of us have been riding our 2 grand rigs, they have been riding Huffys. If these people didn't sacrifice, the products they push out onto the market would never get there. BTW - anyone know how they usually hit it big? Uncle Sam? Nope. The big pharma companies buy them out. If there is no incentive, medical services will suck. Period. Anybody who thinks France, Canada, or the UK would have any system without the ingenuity that comes out of our market system are deluding themselves. These systems leach on our own. Where did the drugs and medical devices they use come from? The U.S. Please spare me the "they innovate too argument." I see how they innovate -- it is slower than the U.S. and far more protracted. All the euros know that to make their drugs and device succeed, they have to hit it big in the U.S. That is why they work their hardest to procure patents in the United States. They know that in the U.S., the incentives still remain. What will nationalized medicine get us? A rapid decline in innovation. You want a swine flu vaccine? Sorry, no incentive to make it. At least not to make it until everybody has had it. You got a hemorrhoid? Wait a couple of years and you can get it treated. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction to me. That isn't to say we can't improve, it just is not the right answer. Perhaps we could start with tort reform... BTW - the U.S. has had nationalized health care for decades on the Indian reservations. The accounts I have heard from American Indians don't sing praise for the system.
Those of you against it, have you actually been to one of the other countries that have it? I was in England and had zero complaints. I dated a girl from France and she loved there setup. Before teaching I used to work at an IT company, one of jobs was to handle the HR stuff like health care. The main sales guy had twins and at the same time turned 35. It was $1250/month for him, his wife, and two kids. And that was a lousy HealthNet plan. So, I am all for something like France, Italy, Spain, Norway, etc. As somebody else mentioned, the best health care we have seems to be VA and military . . . doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the dots.
One another note, how many people have use a health savings account? I save $1000s of dollars a year by managing my own costs and care. My plan (a PPO) has ultra low premiums -- but is there in case of a catastrophic emergency. How it works: I pay completely out of pocket for the first $2200 (I also have to pay my premiums), then I got 80/20 to $4400. The prices I pay the doctors and for drugs are the insurance companies negotiated rates, which are usually half of what the doctor charges. My premium for a family of five are in the range of $450/mo for family coverage (compare that to $1200 a month for the traditional co-pay model my employer was offering). When a doctor tells me I need a test, I ask them why. I ask them if it is necessary. I ask them for alternatives... why? Because if I don't have the test, I save money. This way, I cut through the crap, reduce the insurance companies costs, and save my own hard earned cash as well. If I need the test, I get it -- if something bad happens I am covered. But in the meantime, I have probably save 2-3 K a year in medical costs that would have otherwise gone to insurance premiums by being on an HSA. Oh yeah, any money I put in my health savings account is pretax, and rolls over year to year -- the only caveat is that I can only use it for medical care until I am 65. I will never go back to traditional coverage if I don't have to. There is too much money to be saved managing my own costs.
i'm not in the field, but i know that many devices, techniques, and drugs have been developed in europe and eventually were adopted here. or not- many people travel to other countries to get procedures that aren't available here. and, sorry, but i don't think the native american model holds water. my ex, a p.t., worked on the res for a while, and their lifestyles are closer to third world. any access they have to medical is through normal channels.
Another thing those guys leach is national security. While we were spending like crazy to give them our NATO umbrella blanket, they throw their money at entitlement programs. Do you think they'd actually be able to afford all these programs if we didn't have an implied responsibility to protect them?
^ well, they sure backed us up in iraq for no apparent reason... i'm going to say g'night before this thread gets closed. those of you quoting palin/rush might want to do some fact-checking. but i'd love to hear more input from people who have lived in countries w/ universal healthcare. we get lots of propaganda over here. :cheers:
Just out of curiousity, what'd you have done in England? "A patient needing specialist care at a hospital or clinic, will be informed by the GP of the choice available and helped to decide. Since opting for a private hospital makes the patient liable for fees, most choose a free NHS hospital. GP's inform hospitals of their patient's conditions and the hospitals judge the urgency of each against other patients, with urgent need being met almost immediately and others getting appointments. The median wait time for a consultant led first appointment in English hospitals is a little over 3 weeks. [7] Patients can be seen by the hospital as out-patients or in-patients, with the latter involving overnight stay. The speed of in-patient admission is based on medical need and time waiting with more urgent cases faster though all cases will be dealt with eventually. Patient can ask for a private hospital referral at any time which may provide earlier treatment but at full cost to the patient. For those not admitted ímmediately, the median wait time for in-patient treatment in English hospitals is a little under 6 weeks Ibid. Trusts are working towards an 18 week guarantee that means that the hospital must complete all tests and start treatment within 18 weeks of the date of the referral from the GP. Some hospitals are introducing just in time workflow analysis borrowed from manufacturing industry to speed up the processes within the system and improve efficiencies. [8]"
yeah, the five guys they sent over for that nanosecond were really helpful. :lol::lol::lol: kidding -- I couldn't resist (but i do think their commitment left something to be desired -- brits excepted).
Another thing I notice about some folks is that they aren't smart enough to realize that police, fire department, education, libraries, etc. are "socialized." I am actually into the less government camp, BUT I see health coverage as a separate beast. It just seems strange to me that in 2009 in a modern society that there is any debate about health care for people. We aren't in the Dark Ages.
In Europe they do monitor how well the care is provided. But any monitor can be "gamed". In England they have statistics on how quickly you get taken care of when arriving in ER. So what do they do? The ambulance sits in the street with the critical patient until the ER is ready for the next victim (if he's still alive).
yes, scare tactics. like senator boner (ky) repeating the idiotic idea that the gov't would force people to choose euthanasia or palin and glen beck stating that reform would include "death panels" or that you'll lose your ability to keep your doctor or that the gov't will ration care (like the insurance companies don't now), etc., etc., ad nauseum. as for obama's quote, i'm not sure what you mean by "the system to broke". i think both sides admit that there is a tremendous amount of waste, and that doctors and consumers are on the losing end. good for you if you think you have good health care. most people can't afford it, whether they have a job--or car payments--or not. i went without it for about eight years after i got out of the air force. no extravagant car payments or toys, just not enough money left over at the end of the month, especially when i was paying for college. that doesn't seem right in the richest country in the universe...
I think you should just move to Europe. I think you should just move to Europe. I grew up in Portugal and still visit every other year. My family there always gripes about medical services. I have lost an uncle to a botched surgery and one of my other uncles is in line to receive treatment for his stomach cancer. I'm not making this stuff up. I have been to two town hall meetings and of my own concern and not what any of the obamamedia is reporting. Dirtvirt the current bill being written on the House floor is taking billions from medicare. The rationing is starting to begin. I thought we were suppose to be helping people. What did the Medicare recipients do to start receiving the ax? Our system does have problems, but fix the problems. Don't try to re-invent the wheel. I'm not rich and Kaiser has taken very good care of me and my family and I do not want any stupid elitist messing that up for me.
Actually we have way more food than is needed to feed everybody in this country 10 times over. For one thing, we pay farmers not produce/sell food to fix prices in the market. However, the even bigger issue is meat. For every pound of beef it takes 16 times that in grain. Cut out the beef, give the grain to those who are hungry (amongst other things). Read something like Diet For a Small Planet to get a better idea. And no, I am not a vegan or vegetarian, but I am informed enough to know even the harshest countries in Africa have more than enough means to feed everybody if they would do things properly. With all this talk of "government" health care restricting treatment. Have you been living in the same country as me? Have you not read/seen the countless stories, lawsuits, etc. of insurance companies denying services? And doing so frequently? Especially with the poor and uneducated who they assume will not fight back. They have even made films based on true events for those incapable or reading books, newspapers, etc.
To many ASSumptions here. Don't tell me you've read the entire bill being debated on. It's not available yet. There are different portions of the bill going through atleast 3 committees and they are ofcourse making amendments to it. How can you know what's in it? Medicare going to run out of money by 2019? A few years ago they were saying 2002. It's funny how you hear the "horror stories" of "socialized" medicine like mentioned in above posts. What about the horror stories of our "non-socialed" system? We don't hear them. Yeah, I'm talking about hospitals dumping patients in Skid Row because they don't have insurance for starters. I don't even want to get started on our patients who can't get the proper care they need and talk to on a daily basis. I'd rather have my surgery late rather than not having it at all.
Long response but hopefully worth a read for those who are interested...if you're not, just stop here and don't complain. I grew up in Canada and thanks to MTB have plenty of experience with universal healthcare there. I also have lots of experience with US healthcare again thanks to MTB, and also from handling HR and benefits for my company following downsizing. Here's some of my experience and some thoughts: In Canada the mentality is that everyone gets taken care of. Its not all about profit. So its written into law that all medical services are funded by the public (with some exceptions like cosmetic stuff and things that are totally elective or not medically needed). Hospitals are operated/funded by the government and doctors in their own practices bill the government according to a prescribed schedule of fees. Its illegal to charge someone more than that fee schedule for private care. All this is paid for via taxes, as well as monthly premiums of maybe $40-100 for individuals/families depending what province you live in. So what is the level of service? Doctors are educated to a high level just like the US. Many do their specialties at US schools, and there are also lots that come to Canada from the US. All but some of the most specialized/cutting edge (ie, rare) treatments are available in Canada. Wait times can be long in the ER (hours) or for some services like an MRI (weeks to months). But thats only if its not for something life threatening. Bottom line is, if you need care urgently, you will be taken care of immediately and the level of care is excellent. And the best part is you will almost never see a bill for anything. Out of surgeries for a broken hand, a broken wrist, an ACL replacement, and other misc ER visits, the only thing I ever have had to pay was $25 for a pair of crutches and maybe $10 copays for prescription drugs. Is universal healthcare perfect? No. Anyone can come up with a horror story about this or that, just like any other country. Are doctors/nurses underpaid? I believe so. Does this decrease the level of care? Probably, from what it could be. Do doctors leave Canada for higher pay in the US? Some do. Are the wait times unreasonable? Probably longer than they could be but I've never experienced anything I thought was unreasonable. Wait times is what people complain about most, that and overcrowding in ER's. But most of those people should be at a walk in clinic or their family doctor, not the ER. In the US the whole environment is different. Everything is for profit and you have to look out for yourself because generally speaking, no one else will. So here is my US experience. My company has excellent insurance benefits. The plan on its own is a PPO similar to Cilantro13's plan, just not set up as an HSA. The other big difference is my company pays all premiums as well as the deductible (the first $3k / $6k of costs). It was set up this way because our head office in Canada wanted to provide the same level of coverage that people up there get - that is, high level of coverage for employees at no cost to them. So in theory with this great plan I should not have to pay anything except minimal copays. When I had a crash last summer and opened up my knee, I got my first glimpse of US healthcare. My time at the ER was no different than it would have been at home - similar wait time and excellent care. It seemed like the only difference was I had to check first to make sure the hospital I went to was in my insurance co's network. The shock came soon after when bills started pouring in. About $2k worth for an xray and 14 stitches. The prices I pay the doctors and for drugs are the insurance companies negotiated rates, which are usually half of what the doctor charges. Most of the bills were paid by insurance no problem. But I soon learned that many doctors in the hospital are contractors not employees and thus not covered under the contracts the hospital has insurance companies. Our insurance broker calls them the RAPERs (radiologists, anesthesiologists, pathologists....) because they specifically don't sign contracts with insurance co's so that they can charge full list price to everyone rather than a lower negotiated rate. But guess what - your insurance company is only going to pay up to the rate it typically negotiates and you are stuck paying the rest. Seems you have to ask every person you see at the hospital if they have a contract with your insurance company. But if they don't, can you ask to be treated by someone else? Seems a bit crooked to me. I was stuck with $250 bill from someone I saw that day, no idea who it was. It also bothers me that often it is the disadvantaged who don't have insurance who get stuck paying the full list price. Have a pre-existing condition and can't get insurance? Make too much for medicaid but too little to afford insurance? Guess you'll have to pay twice what someone who HAS INSURANCE has to pay, just because you're not "in the network". The other problem I had out of that injury is the insurance company kept losing one of the bills. I had to send it a number of times while constantly getting calls from the doctors office demanding payment. By the time the insurance company finally paid it, the doctor was in the process of sending it to collections and reporting to credit agencies. Neither of these are isolated incidents. I have employees coming into my office constantly complaining of bills not being paid, claims denied, and not being able to follow all the paperwork. Neither the insurance company nor the providers seem to care to help out, its all about money. A couple more things to think about.... Why is it that the US is one of only a couple countries that allow pharmaceutical companies to market drugs directly to the public? Don't you think your doctor should be the one telling you what drugs to take rather than the other way around? A large number of bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills. In the majority of these bankruptcies the people HAVE health insurance. How can this be? http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/06/new_study_shows_medical_bills.html True, this does reduce costs. But what happens if you forego a trip to the doctor when you're not feeling well because you don't want to pay the bill, only to find out later it is something serious that could have been treated much more effectively if dealt with right away. You're risking your health against a bit of money. Often people will choose to save money, which is their right, but our company didn't want them to have to make that choice which is why we didn't go with the HSA. This is a similar risk taken by people who choose not to buy insurance at all. And when they get sick they also end up costing everyone else money through higher premiums, here because they can't pay their bills. So they are in effect not paying their share. Is it really any different to require them to carry some level of health insurance? We do for cars, why not healthcare? And yes, there is lots of propaganda coming from endless numbers of special interests with considerable funding and political power. There is so much money at stake with any changes to healthcare that it will be almost impossible to work out a system that will 1) cover everyone, 2) not cost taxpayers too much or 3) require insurance co's, doctors & pharm cos to cut their profits. (Sort of like bike parts - of price, weight, durability, you can only pick 2). What is the answer? Who knows. The US system is much bigger than Canada's, and may be too established for us to really change much. After experiencing both I have no complaints whatsoever about healthcare in Canada. In my personal situation the Canadian system cost me less than what I would pay in the US especially if I had to pay my own premiums here (that takes into account taxes and premiums - my overall tax rate was 3% lower in Canada) Even paying a bit more, I'd much prefer Canada's system considering the hassle you go through in the US along with all the politics. Universal healthcare does work but I think some mix of public and private would be ideal. I would say something about the US sticking its nose in everyone else's business, but instead I will suggest that you should step back and look at the big picture. Think economics...defense spending makes up a large part of every country's spending, per capita. If the US were not a superpower, other countries in the region would spend more on defense. This would drive growth in their economies. Industry would provide jobs and wealth on which people would pay taxes, taxes that would pay for their higher military spending and their desired public services. So yes, other countries would have been able to afford all their programs just fine without the US providing a security blanket.
