Mountain Bike Problem in the Irvine Open Space Preserve Again

ok, redeux remix.......:wave:

 

Everybody is an office chair "expert"

This pissing and moaning does nothing, it's the owners discretion as to the highest and best use of their land. In O.C. there is a lot more revenue from things like the mouse and JWA than property taxes, personally I don't think enough of that money is currently being utilized for public recreation. Harbor's and Parks, the IRC, and many other agencies sole purpose is providing outdoor access for every group from elitist A-hole bikers down to people with disabilities. Making sure no one is treated unfairly and keeping ADA compliance is not the type of thing volunteers can be counted on for so a paid staff is not a bad idea.:?:

Quit picking on messengers, put down the photoshop and pick up shovel to make a change. All this petty infighting only makes it worse for the larger community of responsible users. I don't blame them for leaving us out in the cold to sort out the fundamentals before again trying to court our favor.

 

Who wants to allow any public money to pay for an elitist group, the irc, that:
1) Can't police its own lands even with massive funding?
2) Seemingly abuses one user group that "poaches" its land, but not others?
3) Reportedly sends its members on multi-week junkets?
4) Does "research" projects on minutiae?

 

Gimmie a break...

Could we at least recommend that the horses allowed to pass have no shoes?

 

Disco, I get your frustration and agree in theory. It is easy for internet debates to turn into sniping matches, especially among such passionate stakeholders. But for the most part I think this has been a fairly civil discussion, and it's all part of the public dissemination of information and ideas.

I'd love it if the IRC, CNF, OC Parks, Share, Warriors, etc., all came together for a series of trail user summit meetings, open to the public and complete with printed accounts in the paper and podcasts & videos online for those who can't attend. Until that happens, this dysfunctional method is as close to bringing the "mountain bike community" together as we seem to get. I'll take the info any way I can get it.

 

Honestly, do you have any idea how much of an jerk you come across as? Your misplaced superiority complex is getting really old.

 

The Spaniards and Mexicans took this land from the Indians, then sold it to Irvine. I say they give it back. Let the Warrior Society control it. I have seen them hunt down poachers with bows and arrows.

 

I don't really want to stir the pot (right now) but I have lived in South Orange County since 1974 and have heard this so many times. Most of which are the current locations of Apartment/Condo buildings and strip malls. My question is why? Why can't it be built on? Where is the legal documentation that says it can not be built on?

Again, not trying to start an argument, just want to have some concrete facts, then maybe we wouldn't feel like the "mountain bike community" is being excluded from land that will disappear anyway.

 

I don't claim to be a expert on this issue but I believe Irvine Open Space was set aside so Irvine Company could develop other areas. It is not uncommon to have developers put in major upgrades like parks, baseball fields, lakes, open spaces...ect to get their projects passed by county commissioners. I find it very depressing that the people of Laguna Beach spent so much money creating green zone around our town to have it managed in such a way. I am not a friend of the environmental movement I find there vision myopic and out of touch with the need of the people.

Dean

 

okay, dean...but if the environmentalists of laguna beach hadn't rallied (and if the citizens of laguna hadn't voted for a $20 million tax bond in 1991) then laguna coast wilderness would look like newport coast/shady canyon right now. originally, 3200 homes were scheduled to be built there.

and who do you think the 100's of volunteers are at lcwp who lead hikes, rides, do trail work, work at the nix center, help visitors, do plant restoration, etc., etc.?

(sorry, the rain has me pissy)

:cheers:

 

If I EVER get rich..

OK, the world needs balance... nature balances itself despite our efforts ....

If I ever get really rich, I'll buy 1000 acres and make it only accessible to people on mountain bikes, motorcycles, BMX, 4 wheelers..., deer, coyotes...if it NEEDS a trail, it is allowed....except horses and horse people...they weird me out.:?:

I was going to say that the first thing I'll do is kill all living things on that land...but then I figured that was just dumb. It isn't the animals, it is the dumb people..

I've hunted plenty, and killed my fair share...tastes good.

The two times I've rode Whiting I've seen deer... and you know what, if they can deal with us... so can the "rare coastal scrub"..(ever go to Mexico, coastal scrub rules....that stuff is about as scarce as the idiots who bought homes that were built where the rare coastal scrub was, but now want to save it......)

If coastal scrub was meant to survive, it would be building tanks, making guns, and training coastal scrub soldiers.... it would be going after the homeowners that attacked it too.....

:beer: Tongue in cheek and totally cracking up...

Never before has soo much been said about sooo little...

 

The Laguna Greenbelt and the Irvine Open Space (along with the other lands IRC manages) are two different animals. Irvine Open Space was "given" as development mitigation. And, If I'm not mistaken, the Laguna Beach land the condos and apartments on El Toro Rd and the 133 was sold to developers to help fund the Greenbelt project. That said, Laguna residents step up to the plate to support their community whether it be additional sales tax or additional funding for the schools.

 

Please give us a break, I am not a environmentalist neither are many of my neighbors (voters) and we "rallied" against the toll road and coastal development. Don't claim credit away from the good folks in Laguna.

Truth be told the green belt in Laguna was paid out of city coffers by the vote of the people of Laguna. You can thank us every time you get ticketed or your car gets booted when you come to town.

 

Sounds reasonable. You realize of course the land that the house you live in sits on was once "owned" by Indians as well. www.uhaul.com for help with moving

 

dean- i don't pay parking tickets there. every time i try to drive to laguna beach, i get stuck in traffic and have to turn around. :lol:

but thanks for voting against the development, regardless of your motives.

btw- if god's not gay, then how come he made laguna beach so FABULOUS?

:beer:

 

There is a God....thank you.
:steppie:

 

Don't lie Doug we know why you go to Laguna Beach. Mod don't delete just having some fun.

 

My slant on this is. IRC wants us to police mountain bikers. In short to manage the land.Then what's their job? We are not police and have little to no enforcement capabilities but they do. And they think we will be able through peer pressure? No way, if and when they get serious they will do their jobs and protect the land by going after the trespassers (doing their job) and have these poachers cited/arrested. It'll only take a few citations and this will stop. But instead they'll play this stupid game. They know how to stop it, so the real question is , why don't they?

 

They have various synonyms for it:

بخشش
extortion
recompense
bribery
payola
baksheesh
бакшиш
μπαξίσι

 

Other States-Areas Harsher

My wife is a teacher, and many replies here seem like some bratty kid trying to justify actions, wrong is wrong. Some good analogies, but I'd like to see who may do this here if they had the means/cash. Take a few hundred acres of your own land valued at $1 million or so an acre, donate it, then ask a foundation to watch over it as caretakers, and all you ask is a bit of respect for rules. Then also assume the injury liability and all the other fun stuff you know those who you gave this resource to enjoy will come back at you with should they ever get injured as, you know, they're sticking it to "the man." You know what that Shady Canyon resident does...pay property taxes, locally, and pay for impact fees for your park you drive to from outside the area. You have to respect that. Who does that anymore? It all get's developed in other areas, we have a good balance in OC with parks and decent jobs close, that's why I'm here. Also, saw a UCI professor housing mention, does anyone here know history of land here? It was ALL donated to the University at UCI's formation. These companies built this area, period, and without their efforts you and I would never consider living in a cattle/orange grove backwater, unless you want the highly-paid position of migrant worker, call a spade a spade man, they've done a lot of good for life quality, there would be little here without these type landowners or it'd all look like LA or sunbleached strip malls all lined up as in Huntington Beach, squeezed between the oil wells.

And as to enforcement, these managers are not weapon carrying police/rangers with police authority to ticket, and with budgets even during good times, you can't possibly police the backwoods, as you focus where the most people are. Why do they truly need to waste resources on us? Do you need a law in place to know what is wrong? Don't like it, move on, ride elsewhere, why you even reading this if you don't care? If you care, just note what these communications are supposed to be. They are trying to prod us into policing ourselves. Ever walk down the beach and watch someone litter, then just pick it up after someone and throw it away making sure person sees you noticed, kinda shame someone into taking note of what they know their conscience is telling them. It is just etiquette.

Let's keep positive vibe, as I've seen this attitude shut down areas in other states altogether (even surfer behavior permanently shutting down access to surfers at beaches, and whether you like it or not swimmers/hikers are the majority, and majority rules), and it doesn't limit your actions just to one park. Don't buy into the rebel BS, truly think for yourself. When managers talk, both public and private land owners, they will always take paths of least resistance and ban communities, don't label us a "problem" group as we may not get the next piece of property access based on actions at a park like this, even if it is different owners or public land. Maybe I have a different perspective as you don't know what you have until you've lost it. (think of all the south county ranch land surrounding Ladera off limits, maybe we can get some trails mixed into those housing plans, like it or not development fuels funding for our MTB playgrounds).

I'll pepper it with experience I've had in areas closed down and developed in NYC-metro areas I used to ride through the 90s. Where you have to ride great distances to escape concrete, and strip malls, and man I don't want to hear complaints about the couple developments always happening around, progress happens, but at least there are a handful of responsible landowners with master plans that include parks you can actually use, even staffed with people to begin with. One of my favorite and largest areas in NYC area was called South Mountain, and many poached it, and yes few resources were there to patrol it. The fine for getting caught, and you won't get away in method they'll trap you (trust me being a former moto-bike d-bag kid myself who thought I was smart, but all I hurt was myself). Simple, they confiscate your bike, period, and by the way...walk home. Good luck complaining, they know who you are, and you'll be on a list the next decade and next time you're caught fines increasingly get steep, I'm mid-30s and still on ranger lists at some parks from 20 years ago, not kidding.

I'll get off my soapbox, but I assume if you're on this forum, you care about the sport. You are hurting not Irvine Co., those guys can checkout, retire, the money will always flow, good luck in fighting "the man," I was one of those former punk types. You are hurting every person on this post, and this forum. Not caring, is not caring for the sport, give respect to those who fought before us and those in large corporations that usually don't give a damn, actually gave you something for once, now can we be stewards or are we all about posturing and giving lip, staring a gifthorse in the mouth?

Maybe I remember early days of snowboarding too, but I remember the days when resorts banned snowboards except for the small hills, and only real thing that gave access was growth in popularity, and prospect of $$$ for resorts when it got big enough and skiing was dropping in popularity for years prior to that. Don't kid yourself, it was the dollars that allowed access, period. Now apply that to MTB where "barrier to entry" physically is much higher... Do you think we as Americans are getting fit, hardcore riding bikes, huffing up slopes, in shape? You agree riding takes being in shape, right. So, and I've been around awhile, we will never become a mainstream sport nor are our participants particularly wealthy and active in donations to our sports (the bikeshop doesn't count), so we are not a priority, being a realist. MTB take lots of physical effort, you get muddy, bleed, sweat, etc. Nor do we want it to get big, so give props to those who even let us ride, unless you want to ride pipeline, overhead power supply line rights-of-way, or abandoned railroad track trails like most in other similar populated areas. We should be amazed in what, over 3 million+ area, we still have places like this that haven't been ruined by the majority. We have to be docents, nicer than the hiker/equestrian, we ARE less important to them in back-of-their mind, and if banned, do you think anyone will care? I can't personally remember even last time OC Register Outdoor section ran anything about MTB (nor do we really want the publicity). Bike sales were down for years prior to the gas crisis, so let's not ruin it for our small community, this is a much larger attitude issue than just this park. What did Big Bear do at the slightest mention of a lawsuit against them? It is a big risk letting us ride, and being honest if it were my land and I read attitudes like this slapping me in the face, I'd just close the place down. Yes, it's public land, but only reason we have it is because they gave it to us, remember that, because I personally don't see the state/county ever buying something like this for us at market value. Hey, I heard the OC Fairgrounds is for sale, how about we gather $60-$100 million together for a bike park? You get my point, it's valuable land, no matter your politics and not being a perfect world, take and respect what you can get.

Point the caretakers are making, is once they let people know access of anykind more than couple times a month is open again, people come back and ruin it 7 days a week. Word spreads, more people, these people can't follow the few simple rules, back at square one again. They're asking us, "Can't you MTB'ers get it together this time? Otherwise teacher will confiscate it from you again." How many people do you bump into who even know some trails are banned at all, on the trails? Many are innocent when new to sport, point they're making is that those violating know exactly that they are doing it, and we should publicly out them on the trails somehow in tactful manner. Remember that in other parts it is not just hikers, but I've been banned entirely as a biker due to hunters too, and don't think you want to poach that one. I did once and guy in tree with a bow had me in his scope, then later saw remains of a couple deer strewn about, that's one to respect, and go ahead and try a tough guy arguement with couple of those characters. Argue to ban hunting, or allow mixed access during the fall, more people own guns than are hardcore riders, and not sure I'd argue my point in this Google age nowadays, not too smart anyway. It was one of my favorite areas too, banned in fall, not just limited access. You just have to pick your battles and show some respect, realize you are not an island, but represent all of us on the trail.