Is upgrading from a Fox RP23 to a DHX Air worth it?

LOL....kinda what I said in post#3 , didnt even get a thanks....waaa #-o
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hmmm....are you really saying a position sensitive shock is better than a true speed sensitive shock?

one of the big issues I had with the dhx series, coil and air, was their Damn propedal platform that could never be turned off. it really restricted oil flow for the sake of pedaling performance which led to harshness and spiking on fast repetitive hits, due to hydrolock. position sensitive is a detriment in my opinion unless you are an xc rider, in which case it wouldn't really matter. speed sensitive damping is light years ahead of it and just provides proper damping whenever you need it. with a proper low speed compression needle, you can really fine tune chassis position and movement, which is way better than stiffening damping at a certain position. with a nice high speed stack, you can blow off on fast shaft velocities anywhere in your stroke, which is great for rock gardens where you are deep in your travel. not so with the dhx series.

varaxis, have you ridden a proper speed sensitive shock? I'm pretty sure you would not find a single thing your dhx would be better at.

 

Consider yourself thanked x2. I missed a few when i was looking at the site on my phone.

 

Please elaborate on "proper", "nice", and "better".

Here's something to help educate yourself better on Fox damping tech, assuming you understand shock dynamics:

http://www.ridefox.com/dl/resources/bike-PDFs-Cutaways-bvfit.pdf

Even without understanding shock dynamics, a common person can see that the shock has all the elements of a speed sensitive shock, with the addition of the position sensitive Boost Valve. Now, what did you mean about "proper", "nice", and "better" (and "light years ahead") again?

I'd share my opinion with ya, but my head feels so heavy that I need to support it with my palm, which is hampering my ability to write a huge wall of text explaining things at the moment. I will PM you later, as it's kind of off-topic anyways.

I assume that you mean "proper" as in it has simple adjustment dials that you are familiar with, rather than this "neanderthal" method of adjusting air pressure and "inferior" ProPedal feature, both which are essentially a mystery, in terms of shock tuning, to you?

 

sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the newer rc4 versus the original dhx. figured you would understand based on my propedal references. either way, changing ifp depth is a bandaid solution imo versus actually modifying your hs shimstack. if you have a dhx air with propedal, and still believe restricting oil flow to the high speed circuit is a good design, then I guess you win.

so does your dhx air have a low speed knob or a propedal knob? that's what I meant with a position sensitive shock. if it has a propedal knob, let me ask again, since u ignored my question. have you ever tried a real speed sensitive shock?

 

Are you sure oil is being restricted to the high speed compression circuit, with nothing between the oil and the HSC shim stack? :?:





And yes, I've ridden a Monarch Plus, which is a pretty well received shock that should qualify as a "proper/real speed sensitive shock".



I've ridden a Manitou Evolver ISX 6.0 as well, but that has position sensitive damping too. I'm sure of it, even though Manitou pretty much has shared no secrets about their Intrinsic damping. That would actually be a *really great* shock for the OP. In case it's relevant, my first shock was a Fox Van RC (does this count too?).

OP: Sorry for crapping on your thread, taking the troll bait from delusional Fox DHX Air/RC4 haters who can't admit their personal issues. I tried to take it to PM, but he ignored it.

 

sorry, let me rephrase that. the poppet valve puts more preload on the stack, preventing oil flow through the stack until higher shaft speeds are reached. however, this affects the entire damping curve by adding the force of the poppet valve effective spring rate to the curve. essentially, your propedal adjustment affects hsc and makes the shock harsh. not really sure why you are posting pictures of the rc4, which has a true low speed needle.

op: on behalf of the dhx air haters, I apologize. none of us know how to use shock pumps.

 

Put a DHX 5 air on my Reign. I did it because I am 240 and did not want to mess around trying to find the right coil. I like the adjustability of air. It works great for descending. But the pro pedal is sorry and makes climbing a real chore unless you can stay seated and practice "chi" climbing! If you start bobbing you will think you are on the bucking horse in front of the grocery store.....
If you plan on doing all around riding keep the RP 23.

 

So now your personal problems have turned into a problem over your confusion on how ProPedal works and are raging because there's only a Min adjustment, instead of a "fully open" adjustment? Are you gonna say LSC is light years ahead of ProPedal and is nicer and better? Poppet valve, eh? If that's what you want to call it. Preload on the stack, eh? You sort of explain how HSC circuits works; directing more oil flow through it when there's more pressure on the oil from a sudden hit. Are you certain that's bad? Do you know how little the ProPedal does? Many people wish they put a stronger "spring" on the ProPedal, to make it even stronger. I'll just ignore how you implied the DHX Air being called harsh, while many others warned of its reputation of wallowy behavior...

I posted those pics because you grouped up the RC4 with the DHX Air 5.0 and said position sensitive damping that isn't up to par with your ideal speed sensitive damping. The pictures may help others understand too, though I suppose it might take a little extra explanation to go with what's on it, for some to understand it better. As long as people know that fluids can't be compressed and know what a shim, a plunger, a spring, an orifice, and a valve (and various types of valves, like check valves) are...

Apparently the pictures were no help to you. I believe you need a suspension 101. How well do you even understand shocks? Assuming you know "enough", can you please elaborate on how ProPedal is bad? I thought your problem was with the position sensitive damping.

In the DHX Air 5.0, the ProPedal an individual circuit that's set up similar to a low speed circuit, spring loaded to open up in response to sudden hits, which make the oil flow with enough force to overwhelm the spring, to allow oil to flow through a small orifice. With the lever set to max, the spring loaded assembly covers the opening to that small orifice and oil pushes against the spring and squeezes and slips by, effectively smoothing out minor shock activity. It's this difference in how it handles low speed compression that makes it distinctly different from typical LSC damping, instead being categorized as "platform" damping. LSC damping circuits may work through a spring loaded assembly too, but it's more about reducing the size of the opening, rather than covering it and relying on the tuning of the strength of the spring. Even if you remove the ProPedal from the design, not replacing it with any other sort of LSC, it's still best designed to have that small orifice there to allow a specific small rate of oil to flow through freely, before the high speed compression circuit kicks in. Since only so much oil can fit through the small orifice with the propedal circuit opened up to its maximum extent (it can't fully disappear or retract all the way, due to its design), it's more accurate to call it Min, instead of open, but I believe it's as open as a LSC circuit can be when set to min, if not even more open. The high speed compression side then does its job by letting oil flow through, controlled by typical speed sensitive elements (shim stacks).

The difference between speed sensitive shocks and position sensitive shocks is due to the Boost Valve, in the case of the DHX Air 5.0. Most modern shocks now have IFPs, charged with nitrogen behind it, to pressurize the oil and prevent cavitation. That IFP alters the the performance of the shock, especially if a combination of a certain spring rate and sharp hit results in a compression exceeds the pressure of the nit charge behind the IFP. It can cause wallow, as the gas behind the IFP can compress, which allows the oil to push against the IFP and allow more room for the oil to accumulate without going through the compression circuits. Fox designed the Boost Valve to minimize that trait of the IFP, limiting the amount of oil flow that can act on the IFP, yet retain the benefit of the IFP reducing cavitation, and open/close up at different points to allow multi-stage tuning, with tuning specific to the early-stroke, mid-stroke, and end-stroke. In the DHX Air, it sort of works like ProPedal, except that instead of a spring, it uses the IFP's pressure as a spring to keep it shut; it opens up when a force overwhelms the pressure of the IFP, introducing another part of the shock for the oil to go through, which allows for extra tuning (ramped up bottom out resistance, in the case of the DHX Air 5.0). Boost Valve isn't the same on all their shocks; on a shock like the RP23, Boost Valve does the work of both ProPedal, as platform damping, and bottom out resistance. It helps with bottom out, since the gas on the other side of Nitrogen gets compressed and increases in pressure, pushing the Boost Valve back closer to the closed position (without that Boost Valve, the IFP's movement can cause wallow instead). Lower Boost Valve tunes on the RP23 allow for more plushness on well designed linkages that carefully control the feel of the suspension through the stroke (with chain growth, anti-squat, kickback, etc. considered--ones that don't require as much platform), but it can wallow on some other bikes. This additional level of tuning has helped bring Fox shocks to a level above most other shocks [better bang for the buck than Curnutt, which also uses position sensitive damping (its own version of Boost Valve), and has a legion of die-hard fans].

I don't know why you are even trying to argue. I don't know if you are just ignorant or are going on some anti-Fox crusade and have evidence of Fox conspiracy theories on how they have a hold of the OEM market, and/or think they are just overpriced gimmicks. Not sure if you are just going on hearsay from some other ignorant folks either. The DHX Air 5.0 is definitely not a shock for everyone. Like I said before, it's best to know what are getting before you decide to buy it, and you turned out to be a fine example of what happens when you don't.

In other news, R.I.P. Rock Shox Dual Air. Seems like fewer and fewer models are coming with that feature these days. It was awesome for tuning super plush travel that could match the kind of tire pressure you liked to run. I could get it so it was like an extension of a compliant tire throughout most of its early stroke, yet ramp up properly to handle the rest of the trail and also not bottom out. It was f'ing bliss. I guess fancy suspension complexity is becoming extinct, and simple tunability is in. I'm glad I got the RLC fork instead of the CTD fork on my Yeti, when I heard that some of the latest shipments started to come with it. Wouldn't have minded it on the shock, since its bushings were better and I didn't need the ProPedal anyways.

In conclusion, take it to PM please. We can settle things better there without crapping on a thread. Sorry to others. Moral of the day: if you don't understand how to tune a fork or shock, just stick to tuna fish.

 

Think less...ride more...