Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Quotes - Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the second amendment (right to bear arms) is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.-Thomas Jefferson

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.-Thomas Jefferson

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?-Thomas Jefferson

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.-Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.-Thomas Jefferson

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.-Thomas Jefferson

A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.-Thomas Jefferson

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.-Thomas Jefferson

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

 

You're spouting all over the place and making little sense...

There is a reason that the Second Amendment was so important that it was second... Do you obviously think that if the founding fathers were alive today that they would be happy about the way things are and say "never mind", you don't need some of these rights anymore? Who's delusional???

And many Americans gave their lives for that right. While we do need to honor the victims of Sandy Hook by taking action to prevent what happened there from recurring, we too need to honor the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have died to protect our freedom and not to sign it away to attain a false sense of security.

David Koresh was an immoral, crazy nut job who broke the law several times and our government had to take him down.

You mention the indefinite detention statute--that is a prime example of why Americans should push back against government continuing to take away our individual liberties. While I don't plan on doing anything which will make anyone suspicious of my supporting Al Qaeda, it is now a fact that any American on American soil could be arrested in their own home or anywhere on American soil and detained indefinitely if ever suspected of doing so. And that was signed into law by President Obama in December 2011.

I want my daughter to be safe in school. But I also want her to grow up in America--land of the free, home of the brave. The way things are headed, we're going to have to change some of our slogans soon.

 

Hmmm.... I believe the signing away of our Constitutional rights, including the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments, allowing us to be detained indefinitely without cause, occurred under the Bush administration (and was subsequently re-upped by President Obama - both are guilty) as a part of the Patriot Act. I know this second hand as a good friend's wife was imprisoned for two months in Texas (in 2007) as she tried to return to the country from seeing her family in Honduras. Mind you, she did not do anything wrong, nor was she carrying anything she shouldn't have been, nor was she accused of either of the above. She did have a drunk-driving conviction from ten years prior. They eventually released her with an "oops, my bad." I was shocked to see this type of imprisonment occur in our own country.

A final thought from me as we examine liberty and the Constitution. I used to teach ninth grade civics in Colorado. I simplified and repeated some version of this comment over and over again:

Laws become necessary when we refuse to govern our own behavior.

We have strayed from the topic of the thread, but examining our rights, the Constitution and our compassion (or disdain) for one another is an important venture.

 

I don't believe every teacher or everybody in a school should be armed. Also if a school has adequate security to deal with armed intruders than that school is one step ahead of the game and most likely doesn't need more guns there. The main defense for this type of senseless violence in schools is being able to spot the problem early. But there will be times when it will not be possible to spot a potential premeditated attack like this.

Arming everyone indiscriminately most definitely would cause issues and would be very irresponsible. But I do believe a program can be setup to train qualified teachers and staff in the use of firearms and tactics. Keyword here is qualified. Very thorough background checks, physical fitness tests, and psychological evaluations would need to be put in place to find good candidates for this type of program. Also I'm not talking about some 4 to 8 hour training session at the local bass pro, when I say program I mean something like a police academy only specific to school scenario's.

Thousands of citizens are trained in the use of firearms annually and are allowed to carry them in public. We call these citizens Law Enforcement, before these people were law enforcement officers, they were normal people. Most of them use good judgement when they have to use their weapons. If normal people that go through a process can be trained to be in various branches of law enforcement then why can't some teachers be trained to do something similar? Yes teaching should be a teachers first priority, but imho the safety of the students and staff take precedence.

 

I agree with your comment about Bush, he was at fault too and McCain and Graham and the hawkish Republicans who pushed the NDAA act which Obama signed. What Obama signed allows for American citizens to be arrested on American soil (i.e. in their own homes) and indefinitely detained--under Bush, that was only true for foreigners living in America or abroad.

I agree that laws are necessary. I don't want to live in a lawless country.

But what part of the law allowing for indefinite detention of American citizens on American soil became necessary because we refused to govern our own behavior?

A person committing a crime doesn't make it necessary for the government to take away everyone else's rights.

We overreacted to 9/11 and are worse off for it. Let's not overreact to Sandy Hook too.

 

I'm generally sick of hearing about this stuff. Yes it's tragic, but people die every day, all over the world, and in more horrific circumstances than these. You/we care about it to the extent that CNN or whatever newspaper tries to make us relate to the victims to whatever degree.

To those of you saying "And now I'm scared to send my child to school!" - go get your head examined. You're more likely to kill them by having a medical emergency while driving at high speeds in your car or in some other similarly unpredictable accident.

Life is all about accepting a certain degree of risks. Don't let your perception of the various risks get skewed by emotion or reporting. Hell, most of the people I know think we [mountain bikers] are crazy for enjoying a sport with the threat of lions, cliffs, snakes, and other catastrophic injury.

So let's quit doing to the media's job for them while they milk a story dry over 4 weeks of re-hashing and tangential discussions about everything under the sun and how it must all relate back to this shooting. The next story will be along shortly for us to "cry" over. My prediction is "orphan toddler stuck in a mine shaft."

 

...or "Mountain Biking Forum Changes the World for the Better..." (On a Unicycle!)

 

On a lighter note, I have a feeling this weekend is going to be great riding conditions! 30% chance of rain on Sun/Mon, but I'm riding tomorrow (Oaks), Friday and Saturday for sure!

 

found this interesting: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

 

Switzerland's military is compulsory, so every male citizen serves time in the military (women are voluntary). So most of the citizens are trained in weapons and weapon safety. However, as the article states -- military grade rounds are stored in armories and not kept in their homes. The Swiss (or Suisse) military would be categorized as a militia really. So I would say that the Suisse (can't help it my wife is Suisse and I used to work for Credit Suisse) are a good example of what our Second Amendment was written or intended to be.

The Suisse also are fourth in the world for gun-related killings -- not a statistic to be proud of.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ed-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/

Switzerland is also 4th and 7th in ranking of this article. Where's the U.S. Wouldn't we rather be the top of this list too?

http://www.broadband.gov/plan/11-education/




Edit: re: Geek's post #73 below (didn't want to create another post to this off-topic conversation). You are correct Civilian rounds are not stored in armories; however, Civilians can't purchase military-type rounds like we can. They can't buy assault rifles and are limited to the number of weapons they can own after getting a permit. They also have a public health care system, so if someone has a mental health issue, they're not going to get a permit to buy a gun from the government.

And yes, it would be nice if we were only fourth with the same rate as Switzerland and the rest of the developed world.

 

It will pass.

Remember back in July everybody wanted armed guards at movie theaters......it's all been forgotten to everyone except those in that neighborhood.

We always have a knee jerk reaction to these things....over react....then forget about about it once the media moves onto the next story.

 

It's been forgotten because it's a moronic idea.

 

Military rounds are stored in an armory, but not private ammunitions.

While they are fourth, they are only slightly higher than other nations - less than 1/100,000 people. And their numbers are waaaay lower than the U.S., yet their gun ownership is high.

Of course - and maybe that's part of the problem, we're not.

 

I thought I was done with this thread but this... I don't know who they interviewed for that piece. I lived in Switz for a while, and asked a lot of people about all the awesome legends of Switzerland I had heard over the years, that everyone serves in the military and was issued a rifle and ammunition, that they have secret bases and a huge weapons infrastructure tucked up into all the mountains that made even the nazi's tremble with fear and bypass the country, etc etc...

Every time, it caused an uproar of laughter, stories of stealing jeeps tumbling down hills, riding cows into town, all likening military service to a mandatory summer camp all kids go to and screw around in, joking about being issued a gun (no one knew of anyone that had one they didn't buy for hunting), and lengthy explanations on how the security of the country primarily relies on being every countries financial reserve (you don't invade and destabilize your own bank when its the best bank in the world), and secondarily the imposing terrain, which is what made every empire want to keep their money there in the first place. You may be allowed to carry a gun on the train, but 1, I never saw one, and 2, you are also allowed to do pretty much whatever you want. Drink beer walking around, do drugs on the sidewalk, drive across the median, up the wrong side of the street, and park on the sidewalk to run in and out of a store quick, right in front of the polizei. Until you wander into traffic and cause an accident or in some other way trample someone elses rights, it's shockingly live and let live. The difference is, the prevailing sensibility is of decency, discipline, and self-control, so you don't see alcoholics and junkies puking and fighting all over the place and chaos in the streets, because they don't begin with the attitude that "if no one's stopping you from doing a thing, do it til someone does", like we do here. They kicked the puritans and their abstinence/excess extremism out a long time ago. ...who then came here. Switz have their share of wackos like any society, plenty of people pissed off about their lifelong education/career system, and kids that want all the drugs we have, but they make laws to build the society they want to live in, not the one they don't.

The culture of the US is nothing like that of Switz. Saying we should apply their attitude on one specific and relatively minor thing (compared to all the major fundamental differences that make that detail possible) without any context whatsoever is unrealistic.
You might as well just say we should make everyone have guns cause guns are fun and I like em. It'd hold as much weight.

 

Trails are in SUPERB condition. I ran Oaks on Wednesday afternoon and they were good then, and I rode early this morning and they are in perfect condition! Enjoy!

 

They sure are!



For snowshoeing!

 

And your stuck in the Jeffersonian era! We all live in a completely different America. If the constitution and Jefferson are so infallible, why have we ratified the constitution? We've ratified it because it had major flaws like slavery, only white and only male property owners could vote for example. If Jefferson saw how guns are being used today, he'd be the first to limit their availability and killing potential. He never envisioned guns being used to kill children in school and he would be appalled that we stand by as a society and do nothing about it.

It's time to face the fact that gun ownership, as it is defined now, should not be a right. We need another amendment to reign in this insanity once and for all, but a bunch of ideologues think we are somehow more free living in a society where lunatics have easy access to kill people at their will. Over 10,000 killed annually by guns in the U.S. Where is the freedom in that? That actually limits our right to life and liberty. The freedom ploy is total unfounded bullshit.

I'd much rather have our slogans be changed than cling to outdated ideals and keep burying our children. These killings are not going to stop unless the government takes action. All the people crying "keep my freedom" don't have to bury their kids this week.

 

The former Governer of California is back in Showbiz.
Who says America doesn't have a massive hard-on for blaze-of-glory gun fantasies?

 

Since the war on drugs is going so well, how do you think the war on guns will go if they were to all become illegal? Especially if you make gun ownership illegal for what are currently law abiding citizens. You want to start talkin' about a civil war!

Unfortunately, the genie is out and you can't put him back in - there are guns out there that and are readily available. Legal or otherwise. I recently had the opportunity to buy an illegal uzzi. Yes, this stuff is out there, and making it illegal isn't going to change anything at this point.

In California, they outlawed the sale of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. But you can still get them. Also, the larger capacity ones are still available. Making them illegal is not going to suddenly halt their existence.

Just as illegal drugs are readily available, if made illegal, guns will continue to be available on the streets. Even if you're not connected to the under-ground, it's not that hard to obtain this kind of stuff. There will always be other countries supporting such an effort (for their own profit), just as drugs are today.

I'm not against the idea of additional gun control regulations, because there are some that I think are needed. However, we have to be realistic what is enforceable, and at what costs. I am still a strong advocate of the right to keep and bear arms.

 

chicago banned guns and there were still massive amount of murders just saying. there will always be a demand for guns just like there will always be a demand for drugs therefore there will always be someone pushing them on the streets.