Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Wow, excellent point.. I guess in other words gun control can divide us in many ways.

 

Right, then, in the "life-would-be-better-if-we-were-all-armed" world it's you shoot me and he shoots her and they shoot each other but you have water so he shoots you, but you survive and shoot the guy with food blah blah blah. Great existence - wheeee! We can do better than this folks. Have you ever been in a major metropolitan area in the midst of a big snowstorm? It's amazing how helpful and friendly people can be to each other. This was the case with Sandy too. Major disasters do not typically result in gun violence.

So keep your sawed-off shotguns for home/family/business protection and keep your hunting rifles and even your carry-permitted handguns, but let's give up on the assault weapons and huge ammo clips. One step towards humanity might help. If you were the parent of the 6-year-old who was buried today who was plugged 15 times, you might think differently about easy access to assault weapons. But then again, maybe to some people, that's an acceptable sacrifice for unlimited and unregulated rights. I hope not.

BTW, for reference, I brought a 30/30 lever-action Winchester to school in the gun-rack of my Ford F-150 in rural Colorado during hunting season. I am not anti-gun. I am anti convenient killing.

 

Brutal for these families ... but not a gun issue.

in 1927 The Worst school massacre in US history ....not a gun crime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Oklahoma city 1995, 168 dead 19 children under 6 years old ........Not a gun crime

Sick people will always find a way to kill. This should not surprise anyone, we live in a society that does not value human life and really leaves right and wrong up to their own opinion.

SO SO SO flipping sad !

 

Don't know where you live, but I'm more worried about the people who see disasters as an opportunity to loot and do as they please. Maybe I should move to your community, I'll have nothing to worry about than.

Haven't been following the details that closely, was it a full auto assault rifle? I don't get the media's fascination with the "assault rifle." They do realize that hunting rifles come in the same caliber? And that pistols can have 10-15 round magazines, and there are semi-auto shotguns and hunting rifles? And even if you limit them to smaller 5 round capacity (which I believe CA does?), it only takes seconds to reload if you carry extra clips (like the guy in Norway)? And you're fine with shotguns, but have an issue with assault rifles? You do realize that in that situation, a shotgun could have been just as if not more lethal? Not sure banning assault rifles would have stopped a child from getting "plugged 15 times" as you so eloquently put it.

For the record, I don't own an assault rifle or a handgun, or a sawed off shotgun. And I don't think everyone should be able to get a gun, or that everyone should be carrying.

All I'm saying is there is a much bigger issue here, its not as simple a solution as banning assault rifles or taking away everyones guns.

edit: speaking of assault rifles, where is the big public outcry over the Fast and Furious guns the feds sold to all the drug cartels? Not our people not our problem eh?

 

Point 1 - Natural disasters. I was referring to New York City/New Jersey during Sandy, Denver, Buffalo, New York during a blizzard, SF during the Loma Prieto Quake and countless other natural disasters that actually brought out the best in people. I am sure there was some bad behavior among the millions, but not very much. It's winning championships and unsatisfactory court verdicts that trigger looting, vandalism and mayhem.

Point 2 - "bigger issue" Also my point. I am in complete agreement.

Point 3 - "Arming other countries' thugs" Amen!

 

You're right, this is an issue that encompasses many aspects of our society. Look at post #37 and you'll see I'm not anti-gun. But any reasonable person would agree with statement that there would be far fewer casualties in these situations if assault weapons and/or high capacity magazines weren't involved.

Also true, but steps have been taken in accumulating materials and manufacturers have taken responsibility with their products as well.

Hey, here's another one 9/11 -- not a gun crime!

 

I don't own a gun and probably never will. Years ago, I went to a shooting range and got a permit and tried firing a gun and just realized it wasn't for me.

Like most people, I have thought a lot about the tragedy in Sandy Hook. I have a 3 year old daughter and attended a pre-school performance the night of the Sandy Hook shootings and it has been in my mind every day since.

We're all adults, and America has a lot of opinions and those opinions change over time and thus, America and our laws change too.

But while I understand the gun debate coming in reaction to this tragedy--my first thought was to ban guns; the reality is that banning guns won't prevent this from happening again. It might reduce the frequency of it, but it won't prevent it.

And, banning guns has more negative consequences than positives.

One of pillars of individual liberty is the right to bear arms. Once we give that up, we aren't truly free.

Americans are becoming more and more willing to give up their personal liberty for a false sense of security. And that's much more dangerous and destructive than guns will ever be.

I do agree we need to restrict access to guns better--especially to the mentally ill such as the shooters in Colorado and Connecticut. I read one article that proposed a model such as MADD for gun control--I think that makes a lot of sense.

Handing our rights over to the government is not a solution and never works out as well as we hope it will.

As Franklin once said, "They who give up liberty to obtain safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

And while not fatal, there was a similar attack on a school in China last week, and several others in 2010-2011:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

And more occurred in 2010-2011:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–2011)

While not as many children died as the attackers didn't have guns, they too are having a problem with mentally ill people attacking schools.

I think the following steps should be done to help reduce the number of school attacks:

1. Make it harder for mentally ill to obtain guns.

2. Identify people with mental issues and ensure they get care. Or, if necessary, are secured.

3. Our society needs to become more about caring about and for people who are mentally challenged or having issues, and less about ostracizing or even making fun of them.

4. Post one armed security guard at every public school. Private schools should pay for their own security. If we end the stupid "war on drugs" (at least for marijuana) we'll have a lot of out-of-work cops who need work anyway...

My 4 cents...

 

"From 2007 to 2009, the U.S. averaged 10,987 homicides per year by firearm, compared with an average of 182 in Germany, 75 in Spain and 47 in the United Kingdom. Mexico averaged 5,980 annual homicides by firearm during the period. Colombia averaged 13,174." Source

Whether you are pro gun laws or anti gun laws, that is a disturbing statistic. Sure people kill people, but I'd much rather be in a country with 47 gun deaths vs 11,000. I wish I knew a solution to change or culture.

 

The average american has no need for high capacity mags or assault rifles. The NRA propaganda of all or nothing gun laws is ridiculous we will not loose our right to bare arms but we might loose the right to have high cap mags and assault rifles big deal if the end of the world comes and you need an assault rifle to shoot all of your neighbors I guess you'll have to figure something new out.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

1. Thanks RJC, nice of you to say, but you may reconsider after this. I try not to rant, but when I do, things get weird.

2. #27, whether you want to think of it as "sin" or "bad" or "destructive" or just chalk it up to the unpredictability of "human nature" is up to you, but when you look at the page-long list of atrocities like this that have happened worldwide over the last couple hundred years, and compare it to the 11-page long list of those that have happened in the US in that time, what are you saying? That there's more "Human Nature" in the US? That there's more "sin"? That's obvious. The question is: why? It sure isn't the lack of religion, if that's what you're getting at mentioning "sin".

3. Here's why: The point wasn't about imperialism, but about the side-effects of a culture built on constant, increasing, dog-eat-dog aggression. It's what has made western civilization a success for millennia, and it comes with a cost. Increasingly aggressive people.

4. I think everyone should be able to buy a gun, as soon as they complete serving in our country's well regulated militia. Have guns? Fine, join the reserves and you can keep em. Be a bookkeeper for all I care. Go through the training, the testing, the discipline, and prove that you're accountable, and not a thug or psycho, or just a damn danger to yourself or others, and viola, 2nd amendment reads as it was written, not one judges interpretation bargained for by lobbyists. Otherwise, if you're caught with it, it's held in the national armory, with your name on it. Enlist, get it back. If you don't want to be a decent, responsible gun owner, don't pursue it. Your choice. This arms race is off the rails, is resulting in police becoming paramilitary organizations, and buying power in washington on an unprecedented scale. In lieu of an immediate perfect solution, it's time to start trying ideas and see what works, like this country used to, not, sitting around doing nothing while everything goes to crap.

After hearing about this all week from everyone I know over and over, I find myself tiring of the precious do-nothing hand-wringing. But I'm not jaded. If I were jaded, I'd point out that 100 kids could have gotten killed in deadly working conditions making our Nike's this year, and really, who among us care to even know? Does our President cry on TV for them? Nope, out of sight, out of mind. 30 kids were killed by the Chinese displacement program/genocide in Tibet this winter. Does it even get a mention? Nope, China's our greatest ally, just look at all the easy money we can make simply by marking up the cheap stuff they make. When the money's this good, who cares about some damn kids, or even an entire culture? Screw em. Ooooh, but rattle the gates at disneyworld, stir the suburbanites on their couches, and we have to have a national discourse and everyone, think of the children, ...then do absolutely nothing about it & repeat at the next atrocity. Want the aggressive society but still desire the emotional outrage against aggression even if its hollow. Cake, and eating it too. That's what I would say if I were jaded.

You live in the new Rome. A lot of people die for us to live this way. If you can't fix this, then make it worth their suffering & loss.

 

I've heard so many incorrect news reports on this incident it seems premature to form specific conclusions. It's also hard to find balanced reporting on how many attacks were prevented or lessened because of intervention by legal gun owners. But these things play out so fast they're unlikely to be stopped without armed, onsite security, or armed and trained staff. And illegal entry into a locked school should send an alarm to law enforcement.

My feeling is, if you know someone who owns guns and has someone in the house who's obviously unstable (and it might not apply in this case), talk to them and discuss off-site storage options or other solutions. I'm not sure how locking guns in a safe would keep them away from an unbalanced family member, especially after they kill you, but keeping them at the gun range might be a solution.

It's also time we get out of denial about mental illness, both in children and adults. Parents with mentally challenged and violent children have few rights and fewer options. We might also rethink some review policies, and favor pragmatism over political correctness, to head off incidents such as the killings of 12 people at Ft. Hood by an army psychiatrist (with handguns).

 

Still with you Shed. My rants are hammered out on the keyboard in fits of incredulous frustration and much more simplified (simplified like most people's interpretation of the 2nd amendment). I can't help but take the bait some times.

 

Besides the high capacity magazine, what issue do you have with an assault rifle?

 

To me the "arm everyone" is a very scary idea. Don't forget how many people are stupid and lazy in this country. We don't want guns in their hands. We're the most armed modern country in the world and yet in every single mass shooting that I can think of either the person committed suicide or was brought down by law enforcement....arming everyone is definitely not the answer in the real world where people are either 1.)ignorant, 2.) mentally unstable 3.) hot-headed, etc. After something like Sandy Hook many get into the mentality that "if I only had a gun and could have stopped him", but that isn't realistic.

 

I wonder if those countries keep criminals in Prison ?

Sounds like the UK is calling :wave:

 

It is not the guns they are after, it's the Constitution. When guns are in the news like this it gives them traction.

 

<scratching head> I hope you really don't believe that. ](*,)

 

Those who think that owning guns somehow gives them freedom or protects their rights are completely delusional and not paying attention to the real world. I'm sure David Koresh thought with his stock pile that he could "protect" his rights. He had guns and the govt had tanks.

Wake up people. Do you realize the govt can now put you in jail and never take you to trial? It's called indefinite detention and takes away a much more important constitutional right than owning a fire arm. Why is no one pissed off about that one?

The idea that guns somehow make you safe is ridiculous. For every story of them preventing a crime or protecting someone is 100 stories of injury or death by accident - usually with kids involved. The founding father's made the 2nd amendment in a totally different society and for a reason that doesn't exist today - namely a foreign country occupying the U.S.

Big greedy business wants to make money selling guns (any kind, they don't care) that kill ten thousand U.S. citizens each year, just like cigarrette companies wanted to make big money killing U.S. citizens. The lobbyists of NRA represent gun manuf, not gun owners - big difference. They have successfully knocked down any type of gun control since 2004 - limiting what guns can be sold is bad business for the manufs. It's all about money, what the U.S. loves the most - more than its own children.

Most people are rational, even NRA members, and don't want high powered assault, attack "instruments of destruction" sold in the U.S. They realize there is no place for weapons who can kill so many so fast in a civilized society. Claim all you want it's not a gun problem, but without the guns we wouldn't have this problem or this discussion. The threat of people making bombs and blowing up schools is way less than the same person getting a gun and blowing away a school full of kids.

I'm hopeful for change and a world where kids can go to school without the threat of being massacred for the sake of a bunch of douchebags claiming their freedoms are protected by owning a piece of metal that's only good for killing someone else.

 

That would make sense that USA has more gun related deaths since guns are legal in our country and not in theirs. Of course in that statistic they include suicides as homicides (which I don't think should be lumped together). Another interesting point I found in the article is that there are more non gun related homicides in the USA than total homicides in Germany, Spain, and the UK. Which ever side you are on, this points to a bigger problem in our society. Should prisoners be locked up longer? Should guns be banned? Should more people be protected (relax carrying laws)? Should the number of police officers increase? Should schools have a full time police officer? Or two? Should public buildings be required to have better security? Should certain amount of staff also be trained and ready to protect? Should school staff have pepper spray? The list could go on and on. I don't care what side you're on or what you believe. Think about all the options, come to your own conclusion. Don't get heated about the issues. Talking and being opened minded is the best way as society to solve complex problems like these.

Also, I wrote a research paper in college about guns and homicides. The most interesting thing I learned is how the statistics are very skewed (both ways) and there are so many variables it makes it tough to see what the data is actually saying.

 

From what I've read the past couple days, the mother of the shooter believed the end of the world was coming and had bought the assault rifle and some handguns in the past few years. She was said to have been stockpiling ammo and supplies and taking her son (the shooter) to the range with her while simultaneously preparing to have him committed. She volunteered at the Sandy Hook Kindergarten. She divorced her husband when her son was 17 years old; he was 20 when he died last week.