City of SD's Plans for Tunnels Trails Revealed?

(tantalizing title, I hope)

So, the City has published a huge set of draft docs for the "Del Mar Mesa Preserver/ Carmel Mountain Mesa Preseve Resource Management Plan" and it's just been sprung on us yesterday afternoon (today for email slackers like me). It's almost 400 pages and it's a revision of a plan that provided for heavy restriction of evil mountainbikes (and they hadn't even heard of you 29er freaks yet) and recounted tales of trail destruction and animal maimings by bikers.

If you go to the LPCP-CAC site or the MTC site (click my sig), there are links posted to the mega-docs. I haven't had time to do much more than download and I am not going to be able to review these documents before tomorrow night's CAC meeting when it will be presented.

The short notice is total BS. The last time this dreck was foisted upon us, it was sly like this and we found it to be FULL of anti-multiuse garbage that appeared to literally be commissioned by the hateful types.

I cannot believe the new draft will not have trouble hidden in it and I cannot believe it will adequately discuss Deer Canyon trails or etc... I say that because the most recent '06 draft had ZERO mention of Deer Canyon even though I raised the issue to staff at a public hearing (on some other topic).

So, two things for you, brothers and sisters of the lowest caste:

--Can you d/l the doc and review it asap?
--Can you come to the CAC meeting tomorrow night at 7pm in the Los Pen Ranch House and voice your concern and disatisfaction that July 31st is not enough time for us to review and provide "public comment" on the document?

The second one is of more importance. Come dressed from work, except for those of you that work at The Crypt.

 

What BS! so they rip up the Intestines and now they are taking the Tunnels away????? WTF? I'm just waiting for the no parking signs from the rich pricks up on duck pond road......

 

Nobody's bulldozing the Tunnels, this week. That's not the issue.

The potential issue is that a master plan could be adopted that specifically excludes trails currently used to REACH the Tunnels, and that further fails to consider Deer Canyon even though we know it's coming into the preserve.

I dunno, maybe the plan was written with your best interests in mind. What do you think?

As for the no-parking...I bet you're seeing the future on that one.

 

Sorry to be a pill, but is there a way to access those documents without jumping through all those loops (I tried to access your link but it requires log-in and all sorts of stuff). I think this is a very important issue and would like to review this so-called "management plan."

 

Two responses, you pill: heh heh... you can get the link from the CAC's yahoo site, or you can go through all those hideous login maneuvers to join and view the MTC site. I mean, if it's a "very important issue" and all. Had you already done so, you'd have received it in an email along with a coupon for a free Turner 9 Spot.


Offer expires July 15, 2008

 

Hey--I signed up well in advance for the coupon, but I never got it! rotest:

I'm going to do my best to be there. I'll leave the chaps at work...

 

But bring Chocolate Rain along

I'll try to be there too but not sure if I will be able to make it up there in time...If I can't make it in person a letter will definitely be in the mail. This is BS

 

Los Penasquitos Canyon CAC Meeting Tonight: PLEASE ATTEND

From The SDMBA Trail News

Los Penasquitos Canyon CAC Meeting TONIGHT.

Thursday, July 17th at 7:00 PM

Meeting Location: Los Penasquitos Canyon Ranch House off of Black Mountain Road.

HEADS UP!! A new version of the Carmel Mountain and Del Mar Mesa Preserves Resource Management Plan is up for review as an informational item at this meeting.

In 2004, after the disappointing 1st draft was reviewed, many stakeholders made comments and asked to be informed by the City when any progress was made on the Plan. That did not happen. They took 4 years to complete the revised Plan, and they are giving us only 2 weeks to review the 373 pages and make comments.

This is too short and too fast. Your objection should be to the lack of notice provided, no response given to the last draft comments and lack of time provided for this review. Please ask for an extension to September 15th, 2008, with the provision that the CAC and trails community receive updated drafts no later than October 15th, 2008, so that the CAC can vote on the plan in November.

You can find the Plan, Appendices and Maps here:

http://www.sandiego.gov/planning/mscp/index.shtml

The trail plan can be found under 'Appendices' - item number 6.

Some points to consider:

· The Trail Plan for Del Mar Mesa from over 7 years ago remains the same. It says only service roads will be open as 'trails.' Does this mean no singletrack?

· The “Tunnels” area is not mentioned. If it doesn’t get into the plan what are the chances those trails will ever be opened?

· Ridge trails that connect Tunnel trails are mentioned, but it states that they will be closed.

· There is no mention of a continuation or connection to the recently repaired “Duck Pond Trail”. Instead it is a proposed viewpoint.

· On page 9-9, it states about Del Mar Mesa Preserve: 'The proposed public trails system is based in large part on existing trails and existing use patterns,' which sounds encouraging. But then, the plan completely ignores ALL the singletrack trails in the preserve!


NOTE: The city is currently only accepting comments on this plan until July 31, 2008! Put your thoughts in writing, bring them to the meeting and give your input. Please state that we need more time to review this new draft in order to make any responsible decisions.

Directions:
--I-15 to Mercy/Scripps Poway Parkway exit (1 north of Mira Mesa Blvd).
--Mercy Road West to Black Mountain Road (bottom of the hill), north.
--Black Mtn Road North to first light, "Canyonside Park", west.
--West all the way through Canyonside park, then through the white
fence/gate further west into the dirt-roaded ranch house complex.
-- turn left on the dirt where you must, park near the big barn, then walk
southerly around he barn to see the Ranch House. Go into the courtyard, and
the readily observable meeting room in on the north side of the courtyard.


Can’t make it to the meeting? You can send your comments to:
Attn: Kristy Forburger, City of San Diego MSCP

202 C Street, 5th Floor, San Diego, CA 92101
__________________

 

IMPORTANT !! LPQ could lose all singletracks!

Los Penasquitos Canyon CAC Meeting Tonight: PLEASE ATTEND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Los Penasquitos Canyon CAC Meeting TONIGHT.
Thursday, July 17th at 7:00 PM
Meeting Location: Los Penasquitos Canyon Ranch House off of Black Mountain Road.
HEADS UP!! A new version of the Carmel Mountain and Del Mar Mesa Preserves Resource Management Plan is up for review as an informational item at this meeting.
In 2004, after the disappointing 1st draft was reviewed, many stakeholders made comments and asked to be informed by the City when any progress was made on the Plan. That did not happen. They took 4 years to complete the revised Plan, and they are giving us only 2 weeks to review the 373 pages and make comments.
This is too short and too fast. Your objection should be to the lack of notice provided, no response given to the last draft comments and lack of time provided for this review. Please ask for an extension to September 15th, 2008, with the provision that the CAC and trails community receive updated drafts no later than October 15th, 2008, so that the CAC can vote on the plan in November.
You can find the Plan, Appendices and Maps here:
http://www.sandiego.gov/planning/mscp/index.shtml
The trail plan can be found under 'Appendices' - item number 6.
Some points to consider:
· The Trail Plan for Del Mar Mesa from over 7 years ago remains the same. It says only service roads will be open as 'trails.' Does this mean no singletrack?
· The “Tunnels” area is not mentioned. If it doesn’t get into the plan what are the chances those trails will ever be opened?
· Ridge trails that connect Tunnel trails are mentioned, but it states that they will be closed.
· There is no mention of a continuation or connection to the recently repaired “Duck Pond Trail”. Instead it is a proposed viewpoint.
· On page 9-9, it states about Del Mar Mesa Preserve: 'The proposed public trails system is based in large part on existing trails and existing use patterns,' which sounds encouraging. But then, the plan completely ignores ALL the singletrack trails in the preserve!

NOTE: The city is currently only accepting comments on this plan until July 31, 2008! Put your thoughts in writing, bring them to the meeting and give your input. Please state that we need more time to review this new draft in order to make any responsible decisions.
Directions:
--I-15 to Mercy/Scripps Poway Parkway exit (1 north of Mira Mesa Blvd).
--Mercy Road West to Black Mountain Road (bottom of the hill), north.
--Black Mtn Road North to first light, "Canyonside Park", west.
--West all the way through Canyonside park, then through the white
fence/gate further west into the dirt-roaded ranch house complex.
-- turn left on the dirt where you must, park near the big barn, then walk
southerly around he barn to see the Ranch House. Go into the courtyard, and
the readily observable meeting room in on the north side of the courtyard.

Can’t make it to the meeting? You can send your comments to:
Attn: Kristy Forburger, City of San Diego MSCP
202 C Street, 5th Floor, San Diego, CA 92101

 

If you believe two weeks or whatever wasn't enough time to review the draft and be prepared to comment on it, then I would suggest you explain why and how much time you are asking for, as opposed to just arm-waving and saying you didn't get enough time.

The document looks pretty easy to read to me, and most of the trails being proposed seem to be multi-use. I am not an expert on LPQ or DMM so it's hard for me to make a lot of sense of this, but the section 9 in the document and maps 91a on explain and show the recreation/trail plan and I doubt someone familiar with the area would need weeks or months to understand it since it's pretty clearly laid out IMO.

 

Bikers should be careful not to make themselves look uninformed when they make their comments to the proposed plan.....especially when it comes to making comments about not enough time to get involved in the public comment process.

The plan has been in the works since 1997 and is very similar to the Orange County NCCP program that we are tied to locally (which was implemented in the mid 90's locally also)

There have been numerous meetings over the past decade; and I believe so far this year, there have been more than 11 public meetings in the various SD Municipalities........so none of this is a surprise.

It's just that historically the biking community seems to only get involved at the 11th hour when the final draft (which gets published only after several public meetings) gets presented at a final meeting for final public commenting.

By all means......bikers should get involved and make their legitimate comments during this public comment period and submit well thought out comments on the plan with as much specific detail as possible. Don't just have a ton of people copy and paste a generic letter thinking that the volume of letters will have an effect.

Look at the plan, read the documentation, review the maps, and make sensible suggestions with your views and reasonings behind your comments.

Unfortunately like many of the reports I see on a regular basis locally.....mountain biking (especially off-trail use and use on non-sanctioned trails) is once again used as a highlight in the text of the MSCP documents, which unfortunately has a foundation in fact. An image that the mountain biking industry nation-wide needs to work on.

So it is a time for bikers to work through the system and get involved as a legitimate group, and approach this with professionalism and common sense.

Again.......if bikers make this out to be an issue of not having enough time to get involved......they will end up losing credibility; because the plan has been public knowledge for over 11 years now.

Just get your thoughts and comments together and get involved in a responsible and calm manner and you can make a difference.

Just my .02

 

Management Plan

Finally had a chance to skim this “Management Plan” and here are some of my thoughts:

- The stated purpose of the plan is to “provide guidelines for the protection and maintenance of preserved natural open space on the Carmel Mountain Preserve and the Del Mar Mesa Preserve.” Therefore, it should come to no surprise that the plan provides for no affirmative protections for any of the trail/single-tracks used by mountain bikers. Quite the contrary, the plan allows for the closure/fencing of existing trails to mitigate any perceived environmental impact/damage caused by bikers/hikers/horse riders.

- For a massive 200+ page document, the Plan is remarkably non-specific/non-detailed. As someone mentioned, it does not set forth any specific plans for existing trails in the Mesa or Tunnels. But again, the Plan allows closure/fencing if it is deemed that public use would endanger the habitat. The Plan states that trail closure could be “permanent” if need be. See page 6-7.

- The Plan does try to make mountain bikers seem like the “bad guy.” Here’s one catchy line “Habitat alteration by trespassers is a direct human impact. Unauthorized uses of the preserves, for mountain biking and other potentially destructive sports activities, may be included in this group. These impacts will be concentrated in those areas that are mostaccessible to the general public.”

- Section 9.3.2 (p. 9-10) deals directly with the trails on the Del Mar Mesa. This section mentions the “deep depressions and ruts” made by vehicles during the rain and the illegal cutting of fences to gain access. Most disturbing is this line: “The City anticipates closing and revegetating trails that are not part of the proposed trail system as funding becomes available. If not part of the proposed trail system, trails on private inholdings will be closed if the City acquires the land.” But again, no indication what specific trails will be closed.

Given that mountainbikers have already been painted as a “destructive” force to the LPQ/Del Mar Mesa, there are things all of us should do to minimize that perception like: (1) don’t ride LPQ when/immediately after it rains; (2) don’t cut any of the fences; (3) and don’t widen/create new trails in the area.

 

Not exactly true. The mtb community may have a tradition of 11th hour platitudes but this is not the case here. Ebasil is completely up to speed on this and has been for years; he will be there tonight, but the current proposed plan was publicly notified as released this week (not 11 years ago) after 4 years of not informing the public where it stands or how the public's comments 4 years ago have been adopted or neglected. I reiterate, the plan, as currently proposed, has not been known for 11 years.

Your plea for unity is spot on, but the unified front that SDMBA is arguing for, IS extension of the time for review. This is the goal from top down so to speak, review extension. So, since this is SDMBA's call, and there is agreement from the cylcling contingent on the Los Pen CAC (Ebasil and others) then the unified front's goal is "extension of the review window" this will be argued at tonight's meeting. Anything diluted will come off as churlish and reactionary IMO.

If you disagree with stated goal then take it up with SDMBA prior to the meeting but please don't argue from some decentralized perspective during the meeting.

My .02

 

That's what I'm talkin' about! Someone competent for a change. We'll expect your full analysis in less than "weeks". Say 5 days, in WORD format? :welcome: As someone working enough hours per week to feel sorry for myself, entitled, etc... I can tell you that I cannot and have not re-read the newly-published draft plan before tonight. Therefore, I cannot personally review, compare to the plans we commented on 4 years ago, compare the to published LPCP Trails Plan or consult with other incompetent MTB advocates... or at least I can't commit to completing that before July 31st.

Now that we've got you, however, it's clear sailing. Thank you obi wan, and I know we all look forward to your work product. Seriously.

 

I agree with Ebasil, the problem here is they have given us 15 days to comment on this draft plan. Maybe two weeks would be enough; however, the main public forum where we have direct access to city staff is on day #2 of that time period. That is definitely too soon even if there were no concerns about the recommendations in the plan. After today what forum do we have through which to communicate? We can send all the letters we want but there is no assurance that they will be considered, or even read, particularly when the city is quite obviously trying to limit public participation in the first place.

 

Heya, if you'll start tagging things you find by page/doc, that would be great!

 

I am just saying it might help to specify how much more time you need, and which parts are unclear or needing more analysis - geez, just trying to help, I'll go away now.

 

Actually we both agree, and I know they have a pretty strong and cohesive group down there; but I'm speaking from historical perspective from my position as a land manager.

I've attended too many meetings where the managers left the meeting simply shaking their heads in disbelief at a particular user group because of the way they acted; and because of the groups actions the situation was made worse in some cases.

I've also seen very successful results from user groups who have approached them in a clear and organized fashion with well thought out comments, and proposed solutions for the managers to digest.

Unfortunately I also regularly attend many meetings where mountain biking is discussed in a negative light by many agencies (both with and without foundation), so in too many instances the biking community is coming in at a slight disadvantage because of some managers pre-disposed opinions (again both with and without foundation)......so it is very important for the biking community to be focused and concise in their comments.

As far as the short notice issue......it sounds like it may be short indeed; however if someone is very familiar with the area; it really should not take them very long to review the documents and exhibits, and get their comments solidified. A little extra time is always beneficial to give more people the time to get involved; but my point was to focus on the issues and for people to get their thoughts solidified......and not just focus on the short time-frame.

The reason this is important is because if the group is not successful in getting an extension; then the people who only focused on the negative aspect of the short time frame and did not put any thought into the trails or proposed solutions will really be up against the 11th hour.

My statement about the 11 years was simply factual that the MSCP process started in 1997 and the fact that these areas that are being considered for signatory inclusion will have all of the trails and habitat reviewed is no surprise......and is actually a growing trend throughout the country. This process is just part of the standard procedure and was to be expected.

I tend not to have the gloom and doom philosophy when it comes to these issues because I have seen many successes regarding trails that some riders never thought would be sanctioned into the trail systems........but these successes have been accomplished by user groups approaching the issues in a calm and concise manner.

Just approach these meetings with your ducks in a row and with well thought out comments and proposals; and find ways to work within the processes.

Cooler heads always prevail better at these meetings.

Thanks.....and good luck!

 

Goddamit, i got NO email from ANYONE including SDMBA about this meeting.As a member who does participate in LPQ trailwork parties., and pays his dues, why don't I even get a courtesy notice. WTF? I woulda been there, with bells on.
Plus I know a thing or two about how to communicate with these folks in a direct and effective manner.

Do me a favor, Eric. At least let me now, thru this venue or email, what happened and what you think needs doing next. i PROMISe you i will respond with my opinion, and if necessary, what I'm gonna do, even if it's all on my lonesome.

 

I was there. It seemed like a productive meeting and we were able to accomplish the two main objectives:

1) Get an extension of the public input period. A motion to extend it to Nov 18 (?) was voted unanymously, just needs approval from the city now.
2) Provide input to the city on the plan.

I had no idea what to expect at this meeting in terms of turnout, agenda, or the types of people who would be there or how it would go. There was a large group of mtb'ers - maybe 30-40 and I could see that made an impression on the CAC members and city staff.

The city staff gave a brief presentation first and it was immediately turned over for comments and questions - and there were a lot. Some very good speakers there from a number of interest groups. I did not get a sense of any anti-mtb sentiment which is one thing that surprised me; instead, it seemed that a larger issue regarding trails was recreation vs. habitat protection. The consensus was that the draft plan is flawed/incomplete/inadequate and that a much longer input period is needed, and it seemed more it was the CAC group against the city rather than user groups against each other (maybe that conflict appears later when we're focusing on specific trails?)

So while there is a lot of work to be done it doesn't seem like the trails are in as much immediate danger as I thought when I first read about this plan.

Interestingly this same process is unfolding in my hometown of Vancouver, with the final trail plan for Fromme mountain, home of the original and most classic North Shore trails, being released just over a week ago. Read about it here - http://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2542/nv-council-has-a-plan. While on one hand a few classic trails will be lost that encroach on sensitive areas, parks and private land, all surviving trails which were until now illegal have now been acknowledged and legitimized. Even better is the fact that some new trails will be built.

I can see the same thing happening in LPQ. We will lose some trails and hopefully gain some new ones. The silver lining is that we may have the opportunity to participate in designing any new trails and even building them, which means we could end up with a better trail network overall.

As far as actions to come out of the meeting from our perspective, I believe SDMBA and the multi use trail coalition are going to assist the city by providing GPS data and maps of all the existing trails, as well as a ton of input on the plan itself. Hopefully we can provide them with some solid and supportable recommendations to help make it easier for the city to incorporate our feedback.

For your average rider the main thing to do is to write a letter to the city (contact info below) and tell them you want to keep trails open to mountain bikers and other users in LPQ plus any other feedback you have. Having a large number of bikers sending letters that offer positive and constructive comments will go a long way towards having our interests addressed.

Many thanks to EBasil and SDMBA members who work hard on this. After tonite I have a much better appreciation of the work that goes into keeping our trails open.


Can’t make it to the meeting? You can send your comments to:
Attn: Kristy Forburger, City of San Diego MSCP
202 C Street, 5th Floor, San Diego, CA 92101

[Kristy was one of the two city presenters at the meeting; she was taking the brunt of the comments and did not appear to be enjoying it, so please remember to use the utmost respect should you take the time to write.]