PV: The axe is falling.....

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I'll say it again...

...I think we need some fresh tactics. Bikers go tip-toeing around trying to be nice and polite, but I just don't think that's going to work.

Again, I will cite skateboarding as a prime example. Skateboarders were hated starting from about the late 80's to the late 90's. Of course, that was when I was doing it most. Every single spot worth riding was totally illegal and the consequences were steep: increasing fines and/or confiscation of your gear.

Somehow, we're here in the 2000's and Tony Hawk is a household name and skateboards are fashion accessories. You're a kook if you DON'T have one. AAAAND, there are skateparks--good ones--in every freakin' city! How on earth did that happen?

I have a guess:

First, the skateboarding culture was prepared to say "f**k you" and actually stand by it. That meant sneaking into spots, building your own secret spots, running if necessary, but most importantly being persistent--just never giving up. If the city put an obstacle up, we'd use it. If they put up signs, we'd take them down. If we got our stuff taken, we'd just get more.

Second, many people worked to make skateboarding both a lifestyle and a form of entertainment. Thus it became economically viable: you could have events that attract tons of people, the participants have cool style so they can be used to market clothes and shoes, and other crazy stuff. This is a difficult proposition for mountain biking especially with the factions of DH, XC, FR, and whatever else is out there working against each other...and wearing spandex.

We need to be thinking in terms of a broader set of stakeholders. We f**k up the trails, period. So any arguments related to our work as conservationists is tenuous at best. We need to create a broader market that consumes the products of the mountain biking culture. This, of course, starts with developing cool products. The manufacturers and the shops certainly have a stake and so do we.

Let's start by building a pervasive network of ladders and bridges in PV. All of us will rebuild them if they get torn down. We'll be relentless. The movement will get so much press that others will be inspired and follow suit. Eventually, the network will span the entire country and we can ride skinnies to any point in the continental United States.

Get your hammers and your saws. Start building! Go go go!!!
 
well kook,

the roots of skateboarding started also with the punk crowd, where as the mtb community was started by nature-loving klunkers and people who love the outdoors.
I used to skate and follow zero rules but at this level, playing with 3-4000 bucks worth of bike, not too easy to hand it over to a cop and go buy another.
 
Apples and Oranges.

Let's start by building a pervasive network of ladders and bridges in PV. All of us will rebuild them if they get torn down. We'll be relentless. The movement will get so much press that others will be inspired and follow suit. Eventually, the network will span the entire country and we can ride skinnies to any point in the continental United States.

Get your hammers and your saws. Start building! Go go go!!!

Dood- getta clue.

Yer kidding, right?

PV is a Preserve.

I've caught fools building stuff in there...I've taken their tools too. I've also helped tear down and remove ladders with the same tools.

Please tell me you are kidding.

This is exacly the thing the hater's are looking for, fuel for their fire.

Don't jeaperdise my right to ride.

The Skating issues from years ago and the MTB issues of now are totally not comparable.
 
Dood- getta clue.

Yer kidding, right?

PV is a Preserve.

I've caught fools building stuff in there...I've taken their tools too. I've also helped tear down and remove ladders with the same tools.

Please tell me you are kidding.

This is exacly the thing the hater's are looking for, fuel for their fire.

Don't jeaperdise my right to ride.

The Skating issues from years ago and the MTB issues of now are totally not comparable.


yup and those fools are the #1 reason that PV will get shut down.
Guys, this is nothing new and happens EVERY time. When you see people building stunts and digging jumps in a preserve or county park it's always going to get the mega boo hoo.
I ride a downhill bike too. And when at PV I see people hitting that fire road drop with out even looking over the edge. When I say something to them all of a sudden I'm the asshole.

If you want to build stuff you need to do it way out far away. Not in county parks or land preserves. And yes, you will have to push your bike to get there. Hey, if it's easy to get to and easy to find it won't last. Everyone will ride it until it gets shut down. Yes it is kinda like the secrect skate spots, they don't last long and you can't do them in the public eye aka right in the middle of yuppie utopia.

C'mon!

Loosing this spot can not be compared to loosing Fun Land year ago in PV. Fun Land was lost for big money condos. This spot will be lost because of dumb ass MTB'er that are only thinking of themselves.


Sorry to rant but I've seen this over and over.
 
Loosing this spot can not be compared to loosing Fun Land year ago in PV. Fun Land was lost for big money condos. This spot will be lost because of dumb ass MTB'er that are only thinking of themselves.

So very true.... I like to do all the jumps and ladders etc, too. However, PV isn't the place for that. What's there is there. All the wooden stuff has been taken down. #-oBut that's the price that is paid to still be able to ride there. Hopefully it will work, my glass is 1/2 empty for sure.

I don't ride there too much but I really want it as an option. I HATE the climb out of there. My 44 lb bike doen't fair too well on the uphill stuff.

I rode there yesterday afternoon, I had the place all to myself sans 3 fireroad bombers. Why do people do that? There is some much fun stuff off of the fireroads?!?! All the trails lead back to it, so you can't/won't get lost. :?:

the roots of skateboarding started also with the punk crowd, where as the mtb community was started by nature-loving klunkers and people who love the outdoors.
I used to skate and follow zero rules but at this level, playing with 3-4000 bucks worth of bike, not too easy to hand it over to a cop and go buy another.

Wow, this shows my age. Skateboarding came from the punk scene? YIKES! I remember it coming from the surfers... Punks took it over when skating died in the early 80's but the roots (for me at least) come from surfing. However, I was into punk and skating in the late 70's. We used to skate "The Channel" below Hughes Market off of Hawthorne when I was in high school. We would bring our ghetto blaster down there and crank Black Sabbath and Black Flag and smoke pot and skate till we couldn't stand up anymore! Ahhh the memories...

I'm old I guess!
 
Stray Bullit and I must be close to the same age. lol
 
Of course, I am kidding.

Dood- getta clue.

Yer kidding, right?

PV is a Preserve.

I've caught fools building stuff in there...I've taken their tools too. I've also helped tear down and remove ladders with the same tools.

Please tell me you are kidding.

This is exacly the thing the hater's are looking for, fuel for their fire.

Don't jeaperdise my right to ride.

The Skating issues from years ago and the MTB issues of now are totally not comparable.

Yeah, I am totally kidding about building stuff in a preserve. My real point is about persistence and applying a bit of grit in the approach to making sure places don't get torn down. Whether the circumstances are comparable to skateboarding is debatable it would seem. Nevertheless, the concept of taking a more radical approach than the current "nice guy nature lover" should resonate. Let's not mince. Your "right to ride" is already in jeopardy. So, Spooky and DDB, what's your plan? Fight conservationists, hikers, and other riders that don't completely share your opinion? I am pretty sure that's not the case. City Hall doesn't seem to be working so what next? That's all.
 
I say we all get paintball guns and go commando on their tree huggin' asses! Who's with me?!?!





















(BTW, I am totally joking)

excuse, me. started from the sidwalk surfers. but really started blowing up inlate 80's early 90's

Hey, I wasn't being a jerk.... but yeah, the punks did kinda blow it up then. I was way into it! I had a 1/2 pipe with a roll-in and the hole deal in my backyard in the late 80's....
 
Only been to PV a couple of times, but the issue is similar to ones I've seen in other areas over a number of years.

Many good points have been brought up here about getting involved.

I don't know if the issue with PV is a done deal or not, but there is a good lesson here which is similar to ones being faced in O.C. also.

I hear quite often about how people believe that the equestrian sect makes headway because of money or political contacts. But from my observation over the years; the gains made by the hiking and equestrian sects simply come from continuous involvement.

I've seen it so many times now, and have been involved in it myself in the past where bikers do get involved in numbers; but only at the 11th hour when the loss of a trail or trails is imminent.

In contrast, the hikers and equestrians seem to be involved continuously and don't have the same need to make a last ditch effort to rally the troops.

The best example I have of this is in O.C. where there is a trail committee meeting every other month where the public trail users have the opportunity to bring up any issues pertaining to trails in the county to the committee.

I've have been attending these meetings for years, and I can say with absolute honesty that every single meeting since at least 2003 has had regular attendance by hikers and equestrians; but with the exception of myself not missing a single meeting, and a couple of other bikers attending one or two meetings per year; the only other times that bikers were well represented were at times similar to the current PV issue at the 11th hour.

It's great for bikers to get involved with the PV issue right now, but for the bigger picture; mountain bikers need to stay involved on a regular basis at every single opportunity in order to be seen as a legitimate user group.

We need to be pro-active at all times in order to make gains in credibility.

If bikers in PV just show up and raise hell on this issue; and maybe win a small battle, but then disappear again from the scene until the next crisis while the equestrians and hikers plug along continuously; we will not garner any credibility.

Please just get involved, and stay involved, and many of these issues will subside.

Just my .02

Thanks
 
nice add jamR. i believe in wut u said about the 11th hour. we as mountain bikers do get involved at the last moment partially because we arent always on the attack. If we had problems with the equestrians or the hikers then we would be as involved as the hikers and eq's are for us. we are on the defense, that is why i believe we only get involved late in the race.
which sucks.
 
nice add jamR. i believe in wut u said about the 11th hour. we as mountain bikers do get involved at the last moment partially because we arent always on the attack. If we had problems with the equestrians or the hikers then we would be as involved as the hikers and eq's are for us. we are on the defense, that is why i believe we only get involved late in the race.
which sucks.
Good points about bikers being on the defense which may be part of the issue.

But on the bigger picture, bikers have more to loose. Hikers enjoy many areas (literally thousands of miles across the country) that are set aside for hiking only.

Equestrians in many areas live in equestrian communities with private trails set aside for their use.

Bikers on the other hand have extremely few bike only trails or areas, but probably are more active on a regular basis than other groups. I know a ton of riders who regularly ride 4 to 6 times per week and put a couple of thousand miles of trail riding under their belt every year.

I don't know very many hikers or equestrians who use the trails as frequently or anywhere near the distance; so bikers seem to have more to lose.

This is why bikers should always be vigilant to stay involved as a legitimate group.

Think about it.....besides a very short season at Mammoth; name some other biking only trails (especially year-round ones). Name a mountain biking community with private trails. Hell....if there were a mountain biking community with surrounding trails set aside only for mountain biking; I'd buy there!

On the other hand, make a list of the equestrian communities in your area, and the number of hiking only trails in your area.

This is why the multi-use shared trails in Socal are so important, and it is so important for mountain biking to be accepted as a legitimate user group; but equally important for bikers to behave themselves and make sure we are a group that deserves to be on the trails.

This is a great post and there are many good points being made. Just keep up the good work and keep pushing towards continued multi-use access.
 
. So, Spooky and DDB, what's your plan? Fight conservationists, hikers, and other riders that don't completely share your opinion? I am pretty sure that's not the case. City Hall doesn't seem to be working so what next? That's all.


I plan on following the lead and example, set by others before me, that works (mtbpv.org). Again- I am not in charge here. I'm spreading the word.

I plan on following the rules and not giving the kooks any ammo or fuel for their fires.

I plan on attending the meetings, staying involved with CORBA as a Trail Crew leader.

I plan on staying informed and informing others when I can. And when I can't, I'll refer them to someone that can or get the info they need and get back to them.

*

City Hall is listening. The (2) PUMP Committee is as well. They are making recomendations to the (1) City Council on how all this land should be/gets used. This is their primary mission as far as I know. The agenda has been tainted by haters. The rest, this and more is common knowladge.

See ya Tuesday, 10.30.07, 1900 hrs, RPV City Hall Comm. Room. Wear your CORBA shirt if you have one. If not- cycling colors/clothes.
 
Name a mountain biking community with private trails. Hell....if there were a mountain biking community with surrounding trails set aside only for mountain biking; I'd buy there!

I can name two...

~ Boulder, Colorado

~ Bellingham, Washington

I've been to both of those cities and the riding is unreal.

Did you mean in So Cal? I don't think a city like the two previously mentioned exists.
 
Name a mountain biking community with private trails. Hell....if there were a mountain biking community with surrounding trails set aside only for mountain biking; I'd buy there!

Not to derail this thread, but the New England Mountain Bike Association owns and operates several bike only mountain trails/parks in Massachusettes. They are a prime example of what invloved mountain bike activists can do when they get together.

http://www.dieselbikes.com/ maintains some thier trail sytems.
 
It's a bitter pill to swallow, Del Cerro is not for DH/Hucking

According to this story, a good portion of the negative attention probably stems from the use of the jumps around the water tank.

From the Palos Verdes Peninsula News:

"But the increased destruction, most of which is occurring in the canyon area below Del Cerro Park in the Portuguese Bend preserve..."

http://pvnews.com/articles/2007/10/23/local_news/news2.txt

Take a look at the SUNP group's presentation, many areas of their photo "evidence" can be matched up with photos from the "Del Cerro" (or is it Churro...) gallery on this site. It would appear they've developed a fair amount of their perception of "mountain biking" in Del Cerro based this type of riding/riders.

It might not be "cool" to be concerned with people's perception of how one participates in a recreational activity, but operating with wanton disregard to those around us has brought about these consequences.

Is a thirty minute hucking/photo session the same as a 15 mile ride with 2400ft of climbing?:?: When did a camera become required riding equipment?

It's not about XC vs DH vs Freeride (if they're still using that term), it's about having an awareness of one's surroundings, whether it be nature, social, or political.

This process has been underway for many years and now it may be too late to stop it. Taking down those jumps now is like trying to turn in a bunch of missed assignments after the grades have been posted, too little to late.

Perhaps some of the less aggressive riders (perception-wise) or the "more in tune" amongst us should have been more vocal about the possible consequences of certain types of riding/hucking at Del Cerro?

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but Del Cerro is not for DH/Hucking. We need to admit that to ourselves and the PUMP committee. Is it too late to convince them we can effectively "self-edit" our user group on the best practices for the area?
 
but they still plan on banning on bikes no matter how much travel, and if they just allow xc bikes, this will there-in broaden the gap between riders if some or more priveleged than others.
 
It's not about the fork....

It's not about how much travel a bike has, it's about how and where that bike travels.

Does it travel over built stunts and jumps or does it flow with long established "multi-use" type trails?

Fact is, a gap does exist between the types of riding/riders that access Del Cerro. If our user group was in tune to what was happening up there, certain types of riding would have been discouraged. What if those eroding hillsides by making big drops had been discouraged?

What type of presentation would the SUN'P group have if the jumps/berms were pulled out once the city acquired the land?
 
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