Nightmare: An impossible customer? Or is it the LBS's fault?

Some customers are just impossible to satisfy. Some are nightmare customers who you can bend over backward for and yet he still finds something to complain about.

Am I that customer? Here's the (long) story:

In September I ordered a brand new AM bike for about $3000 from an LBS that shall go unnamed (they seem like extremely nice guys, and we're still working this stuff out, so I am not comfortable calling them out in public… yet… ). This is the first bike I've bought in over 10 years, and by far more expensive than my last. I decided to get more serious about the sport But it was probably pretty obvious I was kind of a noob bike buyer.

They advertise several different named builds. At the time I bought my bike, all the lower-priced builds had '2009' in their name, and the higher priced builds had '2009/2010' in their name. Being tight on funds, I had no choice but to go with a '2009' build, upgrading those components I felt absolutely had to be upgrade now instead of later.

1. I used their website to price out my complete build.
Their advertised package prices were in-line with the prices I might get if I bought the same collection of components from Amazon or Pricepoint. Toss in shipping charges and the hassle of ordering on-line and the desire to support a LBS and I felt it was a no brainer to order the parts from them.

But when I placed my order with the owner, he said the package prices on their website could not be honored in-store because they reflect a 'hidden' discount on the frame price that they are not allowed to advertise on-line (a frame discount they said I was getting directly off the frame in-store). They charged me $1299 for the base package instead of $799.

I don't see it that way. I feel the package prices are package prices regardless of which frame you get for how much, and that the frame prices are separate. From my POV, they were simply running a special sale on the frame for locals in-store in order to clear inventory for the upcoming 2010 frames. But, no other shop around sells the frame, so I forged ahead with the $1299 quote to see what the end result would be and whether I could afford it or not. I must say it felt a bit like bait and switch though.

2. From the base package, I ended up upgrading the fork, the wheels and tires, the rotors, grips, and the headset.
And so I go ahead and order the bike. The wheels and tires are a free upgrade because they have some decent spare wheels from an old kit that are on clearance.

3. I get a call while the bike is being built.
Turns out the fork I ordered, Margura Wotan, doesn't support the 185mm Avid cleansweep rotors I ordered. They told me that they installed a 203mm Magura rotor instead. The guy claimed was an 'upgrade and step-up from the Avid.' I figured, 'nice, thank you!.'

4. When I pick up the bike, I notice the rear shock is a Fox Float instead of the DHX Air 5.0 the frame is specced with.
I point this out to them and the owner said "oh, well if you prefer the DHX then sure, but that's a more expensive shock, but we'll go ahead and comp that for no additional charge." Comp that??? That's the shock the frame is specced to come with from the manufacturer!

5. The first set of problems.
The first thing I noticed is that there is a clunking sound in my drivetrain. Once for every revolution of the crank. It only appears when using rear gears 5-9 with any of the three chainrings in front. My guess is the problem was tension related. Next thing I notice is that the 'upgraded' rotor they gave me takes forever to cool down. The cleansweep rotor on the rear wheel cools off quickly but the front takes much, much longer, which makes breaking them in a hassle.

I look up the rotor online. It is, in fact, a much cheaper rotor. No upgrade here at all. Meanwhile, the 203mm cleansweep would have been just $4 more than the 185mm. Seems a stupid place to cut corners to me.

Then I notice that my rear derailleur is date stamped from early 2008. I thought the package I ordered was supposed to contain 2009 parts!

The other issues:

• The headset is sticking.
• The chain is a KMC instead of the SRAM I ordered.
• The tires are different from what I ordered.
• The Wotan rides harshly and makes funny noises.
• There's a small paint chip on my Wotan near the brake line holder.

6. I brought this all to their attention and they claim that nowhere is there a guarantee that the package parts are only from 2009.
Upon checking their website again, I see they have changed all the package names to no longer reference model years. However, when I did my research early on, I had copy-pasted all the package information from their website into spreadsheets. So it's still clear as day to me what the package names and prices being advertised at the time I went to them were.

They further explain that the package prices are only possible because they take parts off of other frames that ship with those parts but end up getting sold with different parts. So they're just parts that are hanging around with various histories.

And here I thought the package prices were due to a special "extra value meal" effect because you're buying a frame and all the parts from them all at the same time. I NEVER would have fathomed that the prices were due to them using parts salvaged from other OEM kits. Their package price worked out to about 25-30% off MSRP for all the parts…or about the same as going to Amazon and Pricepoint but buying new and boxed parts.

And if that's the case, why was I explicitly told that the wheels were on clearance because they were old parts off other frames but I wasn't told this about any of the standard package parts?

Their solutions:

• They said the headset was too tight and loosened it.
• They said the KMC chain was equivalent to the SRAM
• They said the tires I got were equivalent and the ones I ordered were not available. I let this pass because I'm satisfied with the tires I got instead.
• They said the cleansweep rotor was not available and made the call during assembly to use the Magura instead so as to not hold up delivery of the whole bike over a rotor. They admitted the rotor they gave me was more prone to overheating.
• They said the fork needed to be broken in
• They verified the clunking and could not explain it. 3 hours at the shop taking out the cassette, chain, derailleur, and they couldn't figure it out. I would have to leave the bike there until they could fix it.
• I never got a response on the paint chip. I just let it slide because there was too much else to fix.

7. The weekend comes and goes.
Monday I get an email letting me know they still haven't figured out the clunking. The whole week goes by and I am not able to get a reply from them about what is going on. Finally on Friday, a week after bringing the bike in, I drive out to the shop to find out what is going on because I can't get through on the phone nor on email.

They have disassembled the suspension on the bike, taken out all the bearings and have found a bad bearing. Was that the clunking? They are not sure.

They explain that they have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to fix the clunking and that they normally charge labor for all this but will do it free of charge for me. :-s You don't say.

The next day, the bike is finally ready for me to pick up. They have replaced the derailleur with a long cage (hmmm), they put a different cassette on, and the SRAM chain I requested is now on there. The clunking is mercifully gone, though there still seems to be a very subtle grinding 'texture' to the drivetrain. I notice a small paintchip on the toptube near the headset. I can't prove they caused it, nor can I really 100% guarantee it didn't somehow happen while the bike was with me and just never noticed it. But the bike has never fallen, and the top of the toptube is a mighty odd place for a paintchip. Especially for powder coat. Color me suspicious and mistrustful.

I take the bike on some trails that weekend. The fork still feels funny. The drivetrain seems to be ok.

8. A week later or so, I press the rotor issue with them.
They tell me they finally got a hold of one and I can come in and get it replaced. They don't charge me. Good.

I press the fork issue. They tell me it needs several hours of riding to get broken in and I need to give it more time.

I point out the headset is sticking again. They remove it and discover that the guy who assembled my bike managed to shave some aluminum off the edges of the headset during installation, and those long thin shavings got caught inside, causing it to stick. They replaced it with a different headset (I ordered a Woodman Axis SL Comp in red and they ended up giving me a Ritchey WCS off another bike, but with a Tioga cap). They explained the Woodmans are coming back with issues too often so they are going to have to return the lot of them to the manufacturer and don't recommend replacing the original with another. At this point, I'm too worn out to argue over getting spare parts and figure I'll give the headset a chance.

9. After a ride, while cleaning, I turn the bike upside down to make sure I got all the dust off the bottom.
I notice there are deep gouges near the rear dropouts. It looks to me like when they were removing the bearings, their tools slipped and struck the frame repeatedly. They are not visible when the bike is upright and they don't affect performance. But I'm pretty upset about it.

Then I notice the new long cage derailleur has a big gouge in it too. None of these gouges are in areas that are reasonably possible to strike even if the bike were to fall in a rock garden. I can't fathom how the derailleur gouge could have happened other than from a significant crash into a rock. And the dropout gouges, being on the inside next to the wheel, are totally impossible to get from an accident. Regardless, I haven't had any accidents with the bike. It's never fallen. I've never even rested it on the ground (I'm that anal about it).

As far as I can tell, they gave me a derailleur that came off a bike that had been in an accident. Yes it works fine and look fine from above. But it's the principle of the matter. I paid for a new bike with new components. At least I thought I did. $3000 is a lot of money. I realize for a lot of bikers that's cheap, but for me, it's hugely expensive.

On top of it all, I notice this 'new' derailleur is also stamped from 2008. :?:

10. After several rides, the fork is still way too harsh.
Not plush at all. Rebound damping has no effect; it always jerks back up. Platform damping isn't working correctly. The fork makes a squealing sound when you compress it past 40%.

Then yesterday, I'm examining the fork, and I notice the Maxle in it is stamped from 2006. Whoa. I start to get suspicious. But then, I can tell from the graphics it's not a 2006 fork. But how can I tell what year it actually is?

I ask Magura support for help. They confirm the ride characteristics I describe sound troubling and the fork should be inspected. One theory is that the seals are dry. These forks are famous for weeping lots of oil when new. So far, after about 40 miles of riding, not a single itty bitty drop of oil has appeared anywhere on the fork. The stanchions are chronically dry. They tell me to invert the fork and cycle it several times to get the oil to come back down. No luck. Stays dry and just makes the squealing sound every time I push.

Then: I find my manual, trying to find the part number for the fork, to see if I can figure out what model year it is. Flipping through all the pages I can't find anything like that anywhere. I close the manual and there it is in small print near the top right of the cover: 2008. #-o

How I missed that when I first got the bike, I don't know. I just trusted it was a 2009 fork and the 2008 on the cover didn't register with my eyes.

So, it's been sitting in a warehouse for about 2 years, which could lead to dryness... and one of the features which drove me to select a 2009 Wotan is not in this fork.

(Rewind to the day I requested the fork: I told the owner that I had found a really cheap price on a 2008 version of the fork online and several 2009 versions for another $100. Being short on funds, I was debating between the 2008 and 2009. I asked if they would be willing to cut me a break and at least sell me their 2009 so that it would effectively price-match the 2009s I found. They said no. They did come within about $100 however. So I ended up going with it because I preferred the 2009 model, because I wanted to support them, and because I wanted to avoid hassle of ordering online and having it separate from the complete bike build.)


Conclusion
So here I am, the fork turns out to be from 2008 AND it's not working right. I emailed them about this last night. Still haven't heard back. Will have to try calling tomorrow.

I've contacted them about the gouges. They claim they're caused by the cassette and brake rotor bumping into the frame whenever the rear wheel is remounted. Seeing as how I've only removed the rear wheel once... and that was to take pictures of the gouges to send to them, even if that is the explanation, it would still be their fault. I'm very careful when mounting wheels not to bump the rotor because I don't want to have to true it. I also don't want to scratch anything (like I said, I'm that anal).

But I just can't believe that casual remounting of the wheel could cause such deep gouges (they are almost 1mm deep).

In summary:

1. 2 paint chips I can't explain (1 which definitely came with the bike when new)
2. Gouges in the frame
3. Bad front fork
4. Wrong model year front fork
5. Wrong model year (from my point of view) for the derailleur
6. Gouged derailleur (used?) (is long cage even right for my bike? Well, the clunking is gone and it seems to work)
7. Headset is no longer red and cap is mismatched
8. Unmatched cap for headset (used headset?)
9. Frame, which I wanted to take delivery of as a brand new flawless frame has already been disassembled once (to replace the bearings)
10. How many parts are 'used' or 'older model?' I can't tell by looking at the front derailleur, or the cassette.

Questions:

• Am I expecting too much?
• Is it normal for a bike to accumulate damage every time it goes to the shop? Should I just accept that?
• Should I be entitled to some kind of compensation for everything I've been through?
• Should I be entitled to compensation for the frame damage?
• Should I be entitled to get brand new replacements of the parts I expected without paying anything else?
• Should I be entitled to some means of continuing to ride even as the bike is worked on to bring it to the place I thought it should have been in when I first took delivery of it?
• Is it common practice when ordering brand new parts for brand new bikes to give customers stuff from 2 years ago?
• Should I be mistrustful of this shop or can everything be explained away as either innocent mistake or common practice in the bike industry? What about the 'oops wrong shock' with the slick comeback where they try to act like I'm getting a free upgrade? What about the acting like I'm getting an upgrade on the brake? What about the acting like the free labor I'm getting to fix the problems with the bike they gave me is a special comp?
• Am I just a nightmare customer who demands the world but doesn't want to pay retail for it and is never going to be satisfied? I sure don't want to think of myself that way. I believe all I'm seeking is something fair at a competitive yet reasonable price.
• Should I just demand my money back and return the bike? There are no other dealers for that frame nearby and the hell of rebuying the bike is almost too much to bear. I could go direct to the manufacturer (they're in the area) but then I imagine I'd probably have to pay full MSRP on most everything.

My heartfelt appreciation to anyone who actually read this entire post!

 

I personally would go to them and ask for my money back-if they can't make the bike the way it should have been , I'm sure they won't give in....hopefully you paid with a credit card, and have the credit card co. get you a refund!


that really sucks...

yah your post was long, but I read it all...

good luck, hope it works out somehow...

 

I don't have a problem reading any long post if it's well-written and cogent, but I know some people just don't have that kind of focus and need it short.

Really dying to know what shop it is so I can avoid them like the plague. Would you mind sending a PM and telling me?

And FWIW, I think you are not out of line at all. The shop has serious issues, and yeah, really seemed like a bait and switch.

 

seems that you've tried, they've tried, but it's not working out.
I'd ask for my money back.

 

Wow. What nerve they have pulling all that crap. Some of the one year off stuff wouldn't bother if I'm getting a deal. But, they should have disclosed any substitutions for what was promised. The fork not having features you wanted really blows. The shock thing was just plain underhanded. Let's call it stealing. On top of them selling you stuff you didn't want, it seems they don't know how to build a bike. Small issues can be expected, but what a fiasco this was. You should have been able to ride away stoked with your new baby. They need an incentive to shape up or they should just close their doors. If you have the opportunity to get your money back, you should do it. I wouldn't sweat starting over. All you need to do is find the right shop. Ask the good folks here.

What bike is it? I hope you eventually disclose the name of the shop.

 

thats bulshit...
nicely ask for refund.
call credit card company if they say no.
small claims court if you used cash.
post name of store please

 

I'd like to hear the store's version prior to forming an opinion.

 

Buying a bike is supposed to be fun. At this point are you ever going to be happy with the bike? If not ask for your money back. A few of the things you mentioned are probably illegal so they would be insane to refuse a full refund.

From your description of the LBS website I am pretty sure many people here can guess the shop and I am pretty sure I know the frame also. (I won't mention them since you don't want to.) For what it's worth, I bought my bike directly from a local bike company and paid less than if I bought all the components separately.

 

I'll sympathize with you for sure. I feel like this story is something that would happen to me, and the fact that youre not letting it happen is awsome. Dont let them jerkyou around man( whether it's intentional on their part or not).
I know its a hassle, but from the details, I would get my cash back and go somewhere else. Straight up. After I saw those marks on the rear dropout, I would be like peace the f out. Some shops really do care and will make you happy.

 

The shop is the nightmare. I would return it and never deal with them again. That's total BS the way they are jerking you around, you spend that kind of money you should get what you want not what the shop wants to give you.

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about model year on components unless there have been upgrades made.

You have a reasonable expectation for everything to be new and unblemished if that's what you payed for. That said, me personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about scratches that are hard to see on a bike that will ultimately incur them anyway.

The fork sounds like a warranty issue that they should take care of.

Best of luck sorting it out.

 

Get your money back, threaten them with exposure.

They had you hooked from step 1. After that it was all about playing the fish.

 

Any shop that wont honor online prices wont get my business. The only positive factor of buying from your LBS is service and the only service they do is adjust deraillers and brakes (which everyone on here should be able to do or should learn how to do). LBS's are also good if you are loyal to them and they are loyal to you and hook you up with stuff or give you some kind of discount, but when they break that trust, its hard to go back.

I have been having a problem with my LBS. Took my bike in 3 weeks ago, still no word on how much it is even going to cost to get it fixed. They keep saying they will call me back with updates or call me back when they find me a demo bike. I will call and they will say, "ok give me 5 minutes and I will call you back" and I still have never gotten a call from them. I am in the market to spend a couple grand on a new bike. They will not be getting my money.

 

Please tell us what shop this is so we can avoid similar experiences. What a ****ed up LBS.

 

Walk in and say "Give me my bike or a demo."

 

Bike shops are like auto mechanics -- I've never found one that I'm completely 100% satisfied with. Some get close, but there's always something.

That being said, your experience is definitely a nightmare. Get your money and run.

I'd say the motivation for working on and building my own bikes is 10% curiosity and 90% because nobody else will do it as quick, thorough, and cheap.

 

If they speced things out with model years I would expect that model year. For some things its makes no difference but sometimes there is a difference between 08 and 09 and 09 and 10. Sorry your having issues with them. They have some good guys working there if I am guessing the right shop.

 

Go with a true "LBS", one that is not a chain and no affiliation with a large mail order. You will most likely get MUCH better service...Just my opinion.

 

You are definitely not out of line to expect to get what you ordered, with minimal hassle, maximum enjoyment, and a shop that stands behind what they sells instead of forcing you into whatever they have on hand.

Given all you've been through to date, I'd be pushing for a full refund so you can start over somewhere else. And if they resist any further, please go public with the name of the shop (though I can also take a pretty good guess).

So - other than all that, how do you like the bike? #-o

 

if your using sram derailers the rear derailers are all 08's untile the new models came out this year with the newer cable routing , ive heard of of this kind of thing alot lately froom a local shop