"Ghetto Tubeless" . . . . really?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mikie Watson, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Mikie Watson

    Mikie Watson Member

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    Plate-and-Screws.jpg

    THE SET-UP:
    It's almost been a year since I joined STR (can you believe it!!)
    So I know the "Laws of STR Reaction"

    To the derogatory, the naysayers, the "Ghetto Tubeless" Nazi accusers, etc. etc. etc.; this post is not for you. For I come in love, and I come in peace...

    To those that think I don't know how to handle a bicycle, I'll let others throw out testimony to let it speak for it's self.

    This post is for those that are either re-entering the sport after a hiatus (like me), or, folks that are new to the sport and have not fully learned about new technologies (in this case, tubeless tire technology).

    THE FACTS:
    This is directed to the newbie's and to people investigating tubeless technology. This post is because I truly care about you...
    Above is a pic of my right shoulder as it was taken this morning. As you can see, it looks like plumbers tape and drywall screws attached to my clavicle. This happend on June 25th 2012. The prognosis, if that's the right word, as of today, I'm two weeks away from a trainer/beach cruizer, 4 weeks away from a new x-ray and check-up, and 6 weeks away from POTENTIALLY getting back on my bike. That kills me (mentally) cuz I'm a Mountain Biker, and all I want to do is ride.

    Just to be clear, breaking bones is nothing new to me. I have always pushed the envelope. To date, I have broken 6 ribs (3 this time), 3 vertebrae, 1 Lumbar, my right leg, and now my second clavicle. I broke my left one racing in Big Bear back in 1997. As well, I have partially collapsed my left lung once, and had a 28% collapse of my right lung this time around. I'm totally cool with all the other breaks as I was racing and flying at the maximum of my ability (maybe a bit beyond?).

    But the last thing I will tolerate is passed down information about "Ghetto" anything from rider to rider about how whatever they are trying has worked well up to whatever point. This seems to be the case in regards to Tubeless Technology.

    I honestly believe that the reason for this crash was my lack of accurate knowledge regarding Tubeless Technology. And guess what, It was working great up til this point. So never (NEVER!) accept that lame ass statement because the clock is always ticking on a new situation.

    There is only one truly established "Tubeless Technology" and that is the one established by Mavic and Hutchinson called UST. They have patented a Tubeless System of how joining tires to rims will successfully mate.

    All I want to do here is make the newbie, or tubeless interested rider aware of, is that it is YOUR responsibility to investigate directly from the manufacturers what is truly a SAFE tubeless system. If the words "Ghetto" is ever even uttered than you are drifting off into a world that has the potential of developing X-rays like above for yourself.

    There is no worse combination in the "Ghetto World", than statements like, "low tire pressure and tubeless for great traction", because what that really means is, "Great opportunity to burp a tire at speed and experience what I did".

    Just for clarity, My 2012 Yeti did indeed come with a DT Swiss Conversion Kit from the manufacturer front and rear to make my bike "Tubeless" and I had 30psi in my front tire at the time of the crash.

    Please! Please take the time to make good decisions in regards to Tubeless. Do the right thing and go with UST or stay using tubes. Yes even tubes blow, tires shred, things fail. But, does it not make good sense that if you are going to ride two wheeled bikes, fast, that you want the best (safest) option possible. I do... especially for you.

    Just food for thought cuz I care.
     
  2. BBBRAD

    BBBRAD New Member

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    News Flash: You can hurt yourself mountain biking!
     
  3. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Member

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    You missed the point. He wouldnt have crashed if he wasnt using a tubeless conversion that he was told is safe but isnt. Ive never tried any kind of tubeless conversion kit or "ghetto tubeless" and never will (at least up front) never seemed trustworthy to me; UST rims/tires, or tubes for me. Even whan you flat a front tubed tire, the air doesnt escape quite so fast and that usually gives you enough reaction time to get it at least somewhat in control. With "ghetto tubeless" if it burps or rolls off the rim air loss can be immediate and youre unexpectedly on your face at speed. Hes also pointing out that many on this site and others post up ghetto tubeless methods, saying theyre just as secure as ust, detailed expalanations how to do it, etc. leading otehrs to believe is safe when perhaps its not. just to save a few ounces. The only safe "tubeless" is UST rims and UST or tubeless ready tires.
     
  4. Topaz

    Topaz New Member

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    Thanks for the heads up! Been getting flats galore lately and was thinking of doing a STANS conversion. I think I'll do a bit more investigation before I decide.
     
  5. Mikie Watson

    Mikie Watson Member

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    @Sir Crashalot . . . Thanks! You nailed it!:bang:
    @Topaz ~ Your statement just achieved my whole goal brother. I hope others follow your wisedom...:clap:
     
  6. jeffj

    jeffj Bloated Mountain B'hiker

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    Just to be clear, what you were using is not "ghetto tubeless" as the term is widely used by the MTB community.

    "Ghetto tubeless" has a couple different methods. One is taking an innertube that is smaller (like using a 20" to 24" innertube on a 26" rim) than the rim, slitting it length-wise, folding the flaps up and over the sides of the rim, mounting the tire (with sealant) so the flaps of the slit innertube stick out between the tire bead, and the bead seat of the rim, airing it up, and then trimming the excess tube flaps off with a sharp blade.

    The other is to use a tape (like Gorilla tape for example) to cover the holes in the spoke bed, then use a valve like the ones used in a Stans rim, and then mount a tire (with sealant). Sometimes it helps to use a thick tape (like an insulating tape) in the depression in the spoke bed, before using the Gorilla tape, to facilitate getting the bead to seat when airing the tire up.

    You were using a 'tubeless conversion kit'.

    I'm certain it sucks to have all the air leave your front wheel at once. I wasn't there, so I can't say, and only have the video to go by. Do you think the crash would not have happened if the tire had not burped?

    Hope you're feeling & healing well.
     
  7. bing!

    bing! Active Member

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    I truly respect your first hand experience on the matter. That said, I have also seen a front tire tube blow out in person, literally "just riding along". It wasnt pretty either.

    Stans rim and tubeless ready tire vs tubed set up, my personal feeling on the matter is that the risks are pretty even. Not so with extremely low pressures. I think low pressure increases failures risks in both setups. I also wouldnt run a tubeless conversion on rims without tubeless conversion specific rims.

    I may be wrong. This is a personal opinion culled from first hand and interweb information. I am not and have no intention of projecting myself as an expert.
     
  8. digitaldouble

    digitaldouble Member

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    Sorry to hear about your accident - wishing you quick and full recovery.

    Tons of riders worldwide are using tubeless conversion kits with no issues.
    Personally, I had only once a catastrophic Air burp which caused a painfull OTB roll.
    (Thanks to my martial arts training, I was able to roll on my shoulder and not extend my hand to absorb the impact...)
    That happened in one of the first ride after my LBS set up my wheels to tubeless.
    I believe that the culprit was a low air pressure that didn't hold the tire wall as it should.
    And since it was setup by my LBS, it may as well be that the tire bead was not sitting correctly as well, but I don't know.
    That was a setup using DT Swiss rims/Spesh Tires/ Stan's yellow tape/Tubeless valves and Stan's juice.
    Since then I make sure to have an adequate air pressure (around 30 psi) just to be on the safe side.
    My other bikes which I setup myself (Yellow tape and tubeless valves) has Stan's Arch wheels with Scwhalbe RR TR, set up tubeless and I used them for racing and trail riding with no issues whatsoever (knock on wood...)
    On the other side, I've seen a few people DNF races since they got flat tires... never happens with Tubeless.

    So my point is, if you are on the fence, do try tubeless setup. It's really worth it !!!
    Just make sure it is done right and don't under-inflate in order to have a more "supple" ride...
    Better to have a bit of a higher pressure than sorry.
     
  9. HardtailBlazer

    HardtailBlazer Member

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    Hey Mikie Ive been following your threads, im happy your healing up so well! I thought I would tell you I converted both my wheels the day you got injured..two days later I decided to take off the front and just go with a tube, all because of your comments and posts! Thanks for your concern for others and it defiantly did me some major good putting a tube back in the front
     
  10. giantschwinn

    giantschwinn Member

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    Mikie, sorry about your crash. I hope you a speedy recovery. I have been running Stans system with none tubeless tires since 2004. And in the beginning of this year I started going ghetto tubeless using materials I find in homedepot but still using stans sealant. I have my share of burps/sidewall cuts but no crashes yet. Keeping my fingers crossed. I suggest everyone who choose to go ghetto tubeless to at least use UST tubeless tires.
     
  11. kevc

    kevc New Member

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    Would you consider Stans Rims a "Ghetto Tubeless" system? The rims are designed with a tubeless application in mind, even if you have to install a rim strip, couldn't that be interpreted as a proprietary tubeless setup as opposed to the patented UST standard? I'm talking of course in using the rim with a tubeless specific tire and all that jazz, no conversion kits or anything. Not disagreeing with you, just curious on your opinion. :)
     
  12. giantschwinn

    giantschwinn Member

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    I think for it to be truly "ghetto", it would have to involve only items purchased from home depot and with the use of none UST tires and rims. On my 29er, I use Gorilla tapes and backing tapes from home depot, presta valve from an old tube and stans sealant. I have not been successful make my own sealant from the molding compound I purchased from Michaels :)
     
  13. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Member

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    Many try to use a stans rim strip with a regular tubetype tire.
     
  14. Mikie Watson

    Mikie Watson Member

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    Thanks jeffj,
    There is no question that the tire burped all the air and left a flopping 2.25 tire flailing on a rim. It literally wrenched the bars out of my hand in a thousandths of a second.

    I think the bottom line is how does the tire mate to the rim? Mavic took the initiative to build a locking system that does not require sealant (like cars, and motorcycles, and...and...) Thus, true Tubeless system. In my opinion, anything less is "ghetto".

    Just because they call it a "conversion kit", I really do not think that it takes away the simple fact that we are taking any rim and any tire and pumping it with enough air for long enough until the sealant finds all the cracks to seal them. Yes it may be made by a manufacturer, but it is truly not a Tubeless system?

    So for all intensive purposes, I categorize it as a Ghetto System.

    I mean we go out and spend $5k on a bike and then do a cheap conversion on the most important components! Reflecting back, and really thinking about the engineering (or the lack of it to be more accurate), I could shoot myself for duping into what I own for a wheel system. We all know that tubeless burps, right?

    I guess my biggest fear is to have that happen to someone else and not even know they have potentially comprimised their safety. For me that is petrifying! I have to speak out. Think about it. We are relying on a micro thin bead of dried sealant. But we are mostly relying on continous air pressure. Lose the pressure and it's all over...

    I would really (sincerely) like to know how many failures have happened, we will never really truly know.

    Please just think about it...
     
  15. dcrfx

    dcrfx Member

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    With my UST wheels, I always get a reasurring "pop" when the tire bead sets on the rim (similar to mounting a car/truck tire). Not sure if you get that with conversion systems(?) I resisted tubeless until I got the UST wheels but now feel confidence in them when I mount a tire and hear that bead pop on tight to the wheel. Still not going under 30 psi though, just me.
     
  16. melster

    melster Member

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    Every time you pump up your UST tire after you've broken the bead, you should hear two pops as the beads on both sides pop in.
     
  17. mfoga

    mfoga Intense Whore

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    Assuming you broke both beads.
     
  18. Mikie Watson

    Mikie Watson Member

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    That's a great question kevc,
    I am by no means an expert on any of this. But I promise I will be by the time all the dust settles. I have a mental disconnect with anything that is not locking upon another. If I'm not mistaken, UST is the only system that treats it as truly tubeless by snapping into place and not requiring sealant. It's the requiring sealant that throws a variable in there that could be . . . forgotten, poorly maintained, degrades with time? Let's face it, if a person does not maintain the sealant in their tire, the scenario lowers in safety. Seems precarious to me.

    I would have a heart to heart with my LBS and or Manufacturer to find out what their persective on safety/liability really is. They will all say it's all that and a cup of coffee until you start talking liability. As you have heard from some, there are LBS's that are pulling conversion kits off the shelf because of liability. That should make everyone think twice...
     
  19. bing!

    bing! Active Member

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    I can confirm that for Sun Ringle Charger rims when seating Schwalbe Fat Alberts, there is a loud and pretty scary POP seating each bead on both sides of the tire. The seated tire is on there really good. It actually takes two tires levers and great effort on my part to break the seating before i can start removing the tire. Removing and reinserting the tire is really hard, something I "used to" detest. I find some comfort in it now.

    In comparison, the same is true for a couple of sets of WTB wire tires that Ive used. Not true for a "folding" Nevegal front tire that I used for a while. That one, I can fold the tire to break the seating and reach under the edge to take the tire off the rim. I "used to" like that about that tire. Not so much now.

    I have a suspicion that wire tires might be better for "ghetto" tubeless conversions. Wire tirs hold their shape against the rim without air pressure. Folding tire, not so. Arent folding tires primarily for spares? I dont really know i theyre any better, just thinking out loud.
     
  20. El Immigrante

    El Immigrante STR's resident Coyote.

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    I did the same with my front after The Path did my conversion using a DT Swiss conversion kit. At this point, I'm having a shop build me a set of Mavic 819s and use UST tires so I reduce/eliminate the risk of burping, etc.
     

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