Does this bother any one else ?

I'm assuming the Warrior's Society got permission to hold the Vision Quest because without their ongoing trail work there wouldn't be any useable trails in the National Forest. It's hard to quantify how much work they and other trail volunteers do to restore and maintain the trails, and we are still repairing damage caused by the Santiago Fire. I don't know why Canyon residents weren't allowed back in their homes sooner, but these are separate issues. Hopefully that was explained at the time, because those trails are open to everyone and I'm sure enjoyed by many Canyon residents.

 

Sorry, what I meant to say was "they were pedaling squares at a snail's pace, smiling and chatting along the way".

If there are groups who insist on CLIMBING Silverado road-hog style, then they should at least be hammering full-attack race pace. Then at least any stuck drivers get a show out of the deal.

 

Beg to differ kioti. Animosity toward the warriors from canyon residents began before the sign was put up as a certain key individual "dissed" Silverado and some of it's residents. Not to mention the fact that almost half of Cleveland Nat'l Forest was closed to the public for quite some time after the fire yet a certain group was seen as getting preferential treatment to hold their profitable event.
And although many folks including myself appreciate the trail work the warriors do in the CNF, there are a lot dedicated individuals expending copious amounts of time and energy to help keep trails open for riding in the CNF. Even if the Warriors Society ceased to exist, the trails in the CNF would be cared for and kept open.

As far as the ongoing problems between cyclists on the road and local canyon residents, I'll address those in a separate post on this thread.

 

Issues with riding on OC canyon roads

First of all, let me state that this is strictly my opinion. That being said i hope this is taken as constructive criticism.

For years I've been riding AND driving the roads along the foothills of the Santa Ana Mountains. And to be honest, I find it nerve wracking. I personally knew two cyclists who met their demise on Santiago Canyon Road, and I have personally been affected by "local rage" on many occasion.
For example, on five separate occasions, my wife and I have been passed so close by vehicles on Silverado Canyon Road that we feared for our lives. 3 times by a white Chevy with a firefighter sticker in the back window, and twice by a tan Ford with an anvil mounted on the rear bumper. I found out who owned the tan Ford and am working on who owns the white Chevy (he is possibly a chief with OC Fire Authority). I intend to have some civil conversations with them in the near future.

On the other side of the coin, just this past Saturday, my wife and I were traveling north on Santiago Canyon Road when we came upon a large peleton; I'm assuming the Como group.

As we began to pass them on a left hand curve, several cyclists decided it was a great time to "attack" and pulled out of the bike lane into traffic to pass their buddies without so much as looking behind them. My wife let out a scream and my heart about stopped as I swerved to miss them. After we managed to get by them safely, we both agreed on that being the kind of careless, entitled behavior the makes it bad for the rest of us.

The exact same thing happened to me several weeks ago with a group all sporting ShoAir kits. Again, attacking without looking and giving that "entitled" perception. I mentioned this incident to a dedicated roadie buddy and his response was something like "well, they are so caught up in the competitive spirit and they're so focused..."
So is that what gets engraved on the headstone? "Here Lies A Focused Rider".

And like dwrads, I've been stuck behind a large group "recovering" and taking an entire lane on Silverado Canyon Road. Most of the time, a little patience pays off, but there are instances when I've witnessed frustration with the locals and to be honest, I've felt a little myself. But I'm a cyclist so...

OK, let me land this plane with a few suggestions:

If you're riding with the peleton or any group ride, be aware of your surroundings. On Santiago Canyon Road, give a long look back before attacking your buds. Think how your family and friends would feel if you were severely injured or worse. And if you can only think of yourself, realize how painful a collision with a vehicle would be and of course, the long term consequences.
On the smaller 2 lane roads, exercise caution and courtesy and remain single file. If you want to chat it up, there are a host of sweet spots to pull over and enjoy a quick goo and raz your buds. The only need to 'take a lane' is when safety dictates. (I think someone posted already on this)

If you're riding solo or with a few buds, get VISIBLE. I use a Swerve blinkie NIGHT AND DAY on my road rides. I also wear my most obnoxious jerseys. BE SEEN.
I commute on Santiago Canyon Road, and can't begin to count the times I've noticed folks wearing their finest grey or black outfit early on a foggy morning with out an assflasher. Of course, dusk is just as (if not more) dangerous. And during the day, you need every advantage you can get.

For fat tires, this goes as well: Doing STT/luge from Cook's? Riding the road to your favorite trails? Take a blinkie and use it. And don't ride 4 abreast in the bike lane. Outside guy gets clipped and everybody's goin' down like bowling pins...

And for those doing the classic training ride of Blackstar to the Motorway, park where you WON'T be riding the "S" curves on Silverado Cyn. Rd later in the day (across from the Community Center or?). Two reasons: Less traffic early in the AM on weekends and you won't be negotiation them when you're tired and possibly bonking.

Awright... in the hanger, over and out.

Oh yeah, the sign: the guy is a long haul trucker and has the attitude to match. Don't be naive...He's being funny but not in a really "ha ha" kinda way.

 

Of course the WS had permission, and of course they do huge amounts of trail work and other advocacy work for mountain biking. I have and had no problem with any of that. But it was a little presumptious but no doubt innocent or naive, to post a sign about a ride 4 months away (what was the hurry?), while the canyons were still closed and before anyone had any idea how long the forest was going to be closed. Some one took exception to that.

When the canyon was reopened, the county put a residents only sign at the bottom of the canyon. A lot of locals thought that meant non residents shouldn't use the canyon for their entertainment. These people are now leading the anti biking charge. It's not right and I don't understand it, but that's what's happening.

If it was up to me I'd install two signs at the bottom of the canyon. One that askes vehicles to "share the road" with bicycles, and another that asks cyclist to "share the road" with vehicles.

DW

 

Whether or not it is "legal" (which is debatable; there are exceptions to the First Amendment), it is just plain wrong. Would you want your kid seeing that on a drive up the mountain?! Disgusting.

 

It sounds like a lot of the people in the canyon who have issues with others in there area need to find a new place to live. Sure when they bought there were probably in the middle of no where and that what they wanted but if they thought it would stay that way forever they are just plain crazy. They sound like they don't want to live in Socal while still living in Socal. They are starting to sound like just more civilized versions of Art.

 

I became a Forest Volunteer after the Santiago Fire so I could rebuild the Luge. I also worked on the STT, the Motorway, Holy Jim, and Trabuco trails and the only other people I saw out there during the closure were either Warrior's Society members, the USFS volunteers that I recruited, one-day volunteers who helped me out, (plus another friend who loves Joplin trail) and the occasional poacher. You had to be in the system to either legally do trail work or patrol in the closed area. And I only saw myself and my friends, and WS members. Period.

I was asked to look for illegal trail building activity coming out of Silverado, but that's not what it sounds like you're talking about. I'll just say, from my experience, that every time there's an event that closes trails in the Cleveland, it's the Warrior's and a few of us USFS volunteers that are out there cleaning them up. That includes mudslides, tree canopy collapse, wash outs, you name it. An exception to this is after the huge rainstorms back in December when the mountain bike community turned out in force and rebuilt the STT and Luge within 10 days of the storm.

Sorry there's some hurt feelings out there, but how that translates into animosity toward cyclists in general is a little vague. Its a beautiful canyon, its a popular road, its going to be crowded.

 

I am inclined to think that this sign constitutes an incitement to violence and so is not covered by the First Amendment. The case of that LA doctor (Thomas Thomson?) who purposely hit those cyclists demonstrates that road rage against cyclists is a real threat ...

 

You're reading way to much into what was said. There're no hurt feelings here in Silverado. Just trying to shed light on why some of the canyon residents are pissed off at cyclist.

I hate it. I get buzzed by those Pissed off knuckleheads all the time.

I'm curious though why you would be asked to "to look for illegal trail building activity coming out of Silverado"...

I trust that you weren't asked to trespass in order to do that...

DW

 

There were rumors of a trail being built without authorization on Forest land. I took a look and didn't see anything. Didn't have to leave established roads to do it. Speaking of private property, how about getting Silverado Ridge Trail open from 4 Corners to Santiago Canyon? That's something I'm sure the mountain bike community would love..

 

There is no trail that connects four corners to the upper end of the Silverado Truck trail. There's about a mile or so gap between the old fire (now new again) fire break and the truck trail. The private property barrior at the bottom is pretty big. A coiuple of miles at least. I'm sure that for now there's no chance of that Four Corners to Santiago happening.

Like many other trails in the Santa Anas, if the forest service doesn't have access at the bottom, then they won't consider sanctioning trail work on that trail. Cold Water comes to mind.

DW

 

I do not believe it constitutes any incitement to violence. Just a poor attempt at humor by a disgruntled resident.

I am quite sure the sign has been reported to the local authorities by now and nothing has been done about it.
Cyclist have ended up as "hood ornaments" by misjudging corners,equipment failures,hitting debris,etc.....
So proving the intent of the signs author is very difficult to discern because it is so vague .
Had he wrote.....You should make cyclist a hood ornament or I am going to make cyclist a hood ornament .
It would not have first amendment protection .

I personally think it makes motorist aware of cyclist . They may snicker at first at the audacity of the property owner.
A little ways down the road though they are probably thinking how horrific it would be to be responsible for the death
of a fellow human being.

 

Well said.

DW

 

It's off-topic, but an interesting issue. I think it'd be great to have another trail in the Forest, and a singletrack between Maple Springs and Harding would be a welcome addition. Maybe it could bypass most of the private property by dropping into Silverado Canyon instead of going all the to Santiago Canyon Road.

 

The trouble with the sign is that it's acceptable to other residents. Realizing the horror of killing a cyclist, perhaps neighbors could remind the sign maker that not all of us are completely rational, and a message like that is likely to be taken seriously by at least some of the locals.

In my neighborhood, the danger is mostly from drivers endangering children by driving too fast on narrow streets. Rather than just sit by and wait for an accident, some of us talk to our speeding neighbors and remind them that the child they kill could be their own.

My personal experience in Silverado with a driver using her car to swerve at a group of us (riding in a small paceline), and then block the road with her car and stand in the street hollering that "You don't have a right to ride on this road!" tells me that at least one resident could benefit from neighborhood pressure. I doubt the sign's message has a beneficial effect on her mindset.

 

Good points Kioti . My thought is if someone is not completely rational like the crazy women who swerved at you guys and blocked the road, no amount of talking will change their screwed up mind. A citizen arrest was in order based on her actions.
She should of been turned over to sheriffs Dept.
I think it is a little unreasonable to expect canyon residents to lobby neighbors on cyclist behalf unless you
could get someone like DWrads to do it. Since he is a canyon resident and a cyclist.
Maybe DW could gather all those residents that are cyclist he knows and then create a strategy to hold a community
meeting at a park, meeting hall or other venue. Both sides could then speak their minds get to know each other as
people instead of as motorist vs. cyclist . You will never be able to change everyone's mindset and get all to agree
on sharing the road. If you get even a few canyon residents to listen then it will be a small victory .
As for the sign how about a well written non aggressive letter to the property owner ? Remind this person that some
of those cyclist are children and fellow residents that live in the canyon .
Also how about an organized litter pick-up day once a month wearing your cycling kits ? A highly visible public gesture
by cyclist showing residents that you appreciate the beauty of the canyon and are willing to give back to the road/community
that provides so much pleasure . It will show them that not all cyclist are road hogging selfish twits .
Be creative and proactive, do not expect things to get better overnight or without a little work!
Remember it took some time to build up the animosity, it will take more time to tear it down.

 

I'm glad you're not on the supreme court. If the bar were that low, we'd all be in the slammer for how someone else interprets our everyday speech.

 

Wow! And your response to this was?

I ride Newport Coast almost every ride too since I live on Spyglass. The recent deaths definitely have me more aware of the cars and inattentive drivers than before.

 

A lot of good balanced views on this topic from perspective of both cyclists and drivers - such as presented by canyon resident DW. Very possibly moving back here after 10 years in a place with lower population density and more open space, it's a bit unnerving to read this/become aware of it - but at the same time critical to know as a mountain biker that likes road riding too - and when trail riding isn't always a possibility time-wise or conditions. I gotta say, You just want to get on your road bike and get a great workout, you know? Not have to deal with a bunch of BS, geez.

That being said, the problem exists everywhere. I've had a slurpee thrown at me in Eagle, Idaho. Friends of mine in Boise had their friend and road racing team mate killed, and created "Look" as a response to that. I'm sure there are many other organizations like it. The point of "Look Save a Life" is that responsibility for safe riding relies just as heavily on cyclists giving courtesy to drivers, and not acting like a holes and road hogs.

Still, the sign is truly disgusting.

http://www.looksavealife.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Look-Save-a-Life/297423451966