Ancient Discovery - All Mountain before All Mountain

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It's 1990, Pump Up the Jam is blasting on the radio, and mountain biking is about to enter its third decade. Interbike is still held at Anaheim. The industry is in flux. A multitude of manufacturers are making a dizzying selection of components and designs. Neon colors, 6 speed, 7 speed, XTR is 8 speed and elevated chain stays were bomb

Enter Wheel Precision out of El Toro CA, a small company with its own race team, is making a limited run of bikes that are different from the rest of the market. In particular, it's designed to descend fast. Sporting a head angle of 69 degrees, it is slacker than most everything available at the time. MTB suspension is in its infancy and Robert Savage has succeeded in designing a stiff yet compliant rigid frame to descend with wild abandon. The challenge was that Savage had to make do with what he had on hand, which fortunately was quite a bit. Bob Savage's background were racing trucks. He had access to special cromoly tubing from the Nissan Racing Program (NISMO). With a mixture of engineering, craftsmanship, alchemy and magic, Savage Bikes brought to market what is arguably the first ever RIGID All Mountain bike

Wheel Precision is long gone, and the Savage Terminator has long been forgotten. It's nice to know though the just like the Egyptians, Greeks and Mayans, back in the day, some guys were doing amazing things with primitive technology

Here is a review from MB Action.

Here is my specimen. The Savage Terminator was a custom bike. Each one was built to order. There are no exact specs as the builds were specific to each customer.

Check out the ovalized top tube made out of airfoil tubing for race trucks.

If anyone is interested, I can take better pics soon as I clean her up.

 

[push]

Check out the crank arms! Cook's...same as the Cook's Bros. cranksets from the BMX realm? Nice post!

 

[rojomas]

Wow, very cool. What the hell were they thinking back then with the stupidly long stems? :lol: I remember hating the long stems and narrow bars.

 

[SeanC]

Wow, very cool. What the hell were they thinking back then with the stupidly long stems? :lol: I remember hating the long stems and narrow bars.

someone in the marketing departments probably touted the long stems as being the best thing ever "Ultimate Control!" "Better Handling!" and probably threw in some engineering jargon so that we all ate it up, just like we do with 142mm axles, 29" tires, etc. etc.

 

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someone in the marketing departments probably touted the long stems as being the best thing ever "Ultimate Control!" "Better Handling!" and probably threw in some engineering jargon so that we all ate it up, just like we do with 142mm axles, 29" tires, etc. etc.

Back in the day, we cut the bars really narrow to slip through brush. If I remember correctly, the bars were cut according to the width of our shoulders. Narrow bars are easier to turn with long stems. It's a leverage thing.

The funny thing is, its the same trail, and apparently we can get through them with 745 mm bars just as good as 520s

 

[rojomas]

someone in the marketing departments probably touted the long stems as being the best thing ever "Ultimate Control!" "Better Handling!" and probably threw in some engineering jargon so that we all ate it up, just like we do with 142mm axles, 29" tires, etc. etc.

Actually, I remember the industry saying the long stems were to get your weight forward for climbing and to slow down the sketchy steering.

Back in the day, we cut the bars really narrow to slip through brush. If I remember correctly, the bars were cut according to the width of our shoulders. Narrow bars are easier to turn with long stems. It's a leverage thing.

The funny thing is, its the same trail, and apparently we can get through them with 745 mm bars just as good as 520s

Yeah, I remember them touting cutting bars to shoulder width. But I used to get the Bull bars just for the added width.

I honestly I think all the early Mountain bike logic comes from all the pioneers coming from a roadie back ground and not a BMX back ground.

 

[kaboomims]

That bike is awesome. Must have cost a fortune back then. I remember having as super long stem, Mag21's and ridiculous colored bar ends. haha

 

[Rockinthecasbah]

thats slacker then 69.. or maybe its just the fork rake

 

[Beowulf Shaeffer]

Very cool!

However...

In 1990, XTR didn't exist yet (a bit of Shimano history: http://mombat.org/Shimano.htm - XTR is 1992). In 1992, I had one of the first non-XTR 8sp setups in the SFV, a Regina 8sp freewheel mounted on a Bullseye hub, using XT 7sp thumbies that had that 'extra click' (as in "These go to eleven!").

 

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Very cool!

However...

In 1990, XTR didn't exist yet (a bit of Shimano history: http://mombat.org/Shimano.htm - XTR is 1992). In 1992, I had one of the first non-XTR 8sp setups in the SFV, a Regina 8sp freewheel mounted on a Bullseye hub, using XT 7sp thumbies that had that 'extra click' (as in "These go to eleven!").

You are correct. I got carried away with the prose there a bit. Thanks.

 

[corbinafly]

here a 1992-93? HKII w/ elevated chain stays...

 

[ManInAShed]

Oh man, I remember riding a Savage at a norba nat and wanting one in a baaaad way. What a fun bike! They weren't kidding in the review, all I wanted to do was jump it.

Long stems weren't considered or marketed as being long, they were just normal. In those days MTB's were all about speed, not comfort or safety. From geometry to brutally harsh stiffness, classic MTBs are scary quick and dangerous compared to bikes today. Aggressive, efficient roadie positioning, maximize leverage & control on wheel, a tight wheelbase for maneuverability in the woods, more weight keeping the front wheel glued while climbing = 225mm stems long, 200mm normal, 150mm normal, 135mm short, 120mm stems "would you like a mustache bar and padded saddle with that?" short.

The Savage Terminator is a strange and magnificent beast, & its personality is exemplified by that mid-flight photo.
That bike needs a wild two-tone florescent paintjob man!

 

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here a 1992-93? HKII w/ elevated chain stays...

Great bike. I so want that saddle

 

[OMR]

Memories... Memories.... Ol Bob was quite a character... even with a broken back! Raced for him for several years. We had a great team. Still have the jersey. To know Bob was to know his snakes. Kept a python in his shop to try and scare off would be break-ins. It didn't and that's why he finally called it quits. Too bad. On of the true characters of that era.

 

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Memories... Memories.... Ol Bob was quite a character... even with a broken back! Raced for him for several years. We had a great team. Still have the jersey. To know Bob was to know his snakes. Kept a python in his shop to try and scare off would be break-ins. It didn't and that's why he finally called it quits. Too bad. On of the true characters of that era.

Great stuff. If you can recall anything else about Savage and Wheel Precision, I would be glad to hear it. Most especially, a racer/user review of this frame

 

[Salespunk]

Those were the days!

Regarding stem length, the leverage ratio over the front wheel has not changed much. The length from the stem has just been transferred to the bars.

 

[fos'l]

Excellent thread which brought back many fond memories since I lived around the corner from his shop. As I recall, he broke his back racing downhill at big bear and one of his hobbies was catching rattlesnakes (or I'm a big fish for believing him when he told me that). Sad day when he closed his shop.

 

[OMR]

Actually, nobody on the team raced on his frame. Richard Knight raced on a Specialized Frame, Kurt on a GT, Alicia on a ParkPre, Cliff... don't remember... and I used an American Classic that was hanging around the shop. He had a couple of Terminator frames hanging in the shop and one built up. It was actually ahead of its time in the angles used. He had originally built it as a lark, then people wanted to buy it. There was quite a bike industry up Silverado Canyon: Grafton Performance & ActionTec. Robert was close friends with John Grafton and Russ Robinson. They all rode together and tested various components. Jeff Streber (Intense) was another guy that dropped by the shop all the time...Small world.

I learned so much working on my bike from Robert. He had had his thumb pulled of in an accident wenching a boat ashore... though he had a grip like a vise! And yes, he did delight in catching rattlesnakes and scaring the pants off those riders with him at the time. He kept a baby rattler at home as a pet and called him Spoke. He nearly died as a result of being bitten by a young rattler on one of his hikes. It was a lot of fun to go to Interbike with him as he knew everybody and was famous for breaking his back at a Big Bear race.

BTW: those are not Cook Brother's cranks. They were CQC cranks made by a Cook Brother on his own. When Grafton came out with his Joy Sticks, they looked a lot like the CQC crank.

 

[Kevin949]

Robert is still married to Linda and lives out is Fallbrook , works for him self as a handy man I've had him do some work for me and I remember going into his shop a few times my Friend Kurt knows him will and they work together some times. He is still crazy and rides motercycles and deep sea fishes on a sea kyak the guy is quite the character .

 

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I'm going to get the frame painted to stop some surface rusting. Two tone is a no go as powder coating in two colors is too expensive. I will go with one.

I'm thinking orange.