CC/VQ reports :) / Preliminary Results (merged threads)

Discussion in 'Racing and Training' started by quikflip27, Mar 20, 2010.

  1. Bergsteiger

    Bergsteiger Mr. Krisztian

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    Yup, pretty sure that was me. If it was between 11:30 and 1 ish. I was saying how it is mind boggling that people can finish this VQ course in 5 hours. It was a pleasure suffering with you. :lol:
     
  2. Jorge Lujan

    Jorge Lujan New Member

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    This was my 2nd WS event, VQ in 2006 (at which time I told myself I would never do this to my body again!) and this year the CC. The greatest part of the day was being able to ride it with my 21 year old son. He didn't do much in the way of pre-ride training, so he wasn't the quickest out on the course, but he kept moving, and grinding, and sweating, and FINISHED!! After receiving his feather, he asked me when we would be able to sign up for next year's VQ. I'm not sure if this was due to his being delerious, or a serious endorphan high he was on, but I'm all for it!
    Great job Warrior Society and especially all the volunteers. They make this event an incredible experience for all the riders!
     
  3. JD158

    JD158 New Member

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    First of all...I just wanted to say a big conrats and pat on the back for all that attempted and/or finished the VQ and CC. The course is definitely a tough one and I still remember exactly the feeling of accomplishment and getting that feather when I crossed the finish line last year.:beer:

    To help with the complaints or issues at hand, I can only speak for myself, my buddy, and another team velosport member who i saw grabbed his own stashed supplies in the bushes when he got to the bottom of motorway. When registration opened, yes I was not up at midnight like most of the event participants were to purchase the spots, since I figured I can do it in the morning when I woke up....shame on me...and my bad. Last year, I was able to get in off of the wait list about a month prior to the event, therefore explains my relaxed attitude of "ill just do it in the morning when I wake up".....had no clue how fast they sold out. I also got on the "unofficial" wait list this year, and thanks for the STR member who opted to try and have an "unofficial" wait list this year. Unfortunately I wasnt able to secure a spot either and nor did my buddy.

    Saturday comes close and I decided, well Sanjay last year ran it self supported, and I know two wrongs dont make a right, but again I didnt think it was or knew it was a problem since everybody was cheering and clapping him on and didnt even complain one word about him doing this. So why not run it self supported, after all I'm only going to do part of the course. My only plan was to make it up to Blackstar to Motorway, Maple Springs and Four Corners, which we ended up to Modjeska Peak and then turn around. My whole plan for Saturday was not to "hammer" away, and that if I did catch anyone, I would cheer them on, give some words of encouragement, and make sure to give them plenty of space, since they did pay to ride, and help those that may need help, which we offered to every single one we crossed paths with. At one point I caught up with my buddy Faruk, who had just crashed in a loose area 10 seconds before I got there, helped pick him up, cheered him on and made sure he was ok....then few yards later caught up with one of my girl friends Chris, chatted with her and she said "I dont have gloves, because I left them on my bumper this morning"...we said hey take ours please, but she denied....later her bike broke up Maple Springs, we tried to help but derailleur hanger was broken, so i said take mine, but it was a large and she rides a small, so too big.....then we said ride my buddies bike which was a medium, but buddies bike had eggbeater pedals and tried swapping out pedals, but they were on too tight and an alien tool isnt enough leverage.....we also thought lets just change the cleats but was recommended not to by another rider since she would have to go down the techy stuff on HJ and not having ridden egg beaters could hurt her.....and also another stranger, just a couple miles before Motorway, looks like he had gone down and bent his 29er wheel and was walking....I said "hey want to take my bike and I'll walk your bike out of here so you can finish the event".....he thought about it and then denied it and asked if i saw someone to send a truck which I did tell the staff at the top of Motorway. Again not trying to toot my own horn about what a saint I or my buddy was, because we are far from it :lol:, but just trying to give you guys the idea of what we were doing out there being so "selfish" and bad people for "poaching". Sure we have 364 other days a year to ride this, and as "selfish" as you guys call it, I guess we still just wanted to be around the awesome event, ride our bikes, and cheer people on even if we couldnt get a paid spot.

    And to make it real clear, we got to the bottom of Motorway and did not use any of the aid stations. We carried 3 full bottles of water/cytomax and our own gel and cliff bars. Yes im dehydrated this morning as I type this since I could have used more, but made it to Modjeska Peak and back to the car parked near tree farm with a gulp left :lol:.

    For myself and my buddy Diego....to all those we offended and upsetted, please accept our biggest apologies for "poaching" and being "selfish". We will make sure next year to have a spot or dont ride it at all. No need to contact the team/shop regarding our selfish acts as it was our own decision and do take full responsibility and I agree, when we wear the team or shop jerseys, we should do a better job of representing them and not "poaching" the event self supported. Feel free to email me directly if there are any other issues or questions regarding this or if you'd like to send me or Diego some hate mail about how selfish we were, we are all ears.

    But lets not gripe any more on the forum, after all its mountain biking. I'd rather read all the great RR's from everybody instead, and if we "selfish poachers" are the first or second thing that can be mentioned in a RR, well I'm truly ashamed of myself and my buddy for being part of those memories you have of the VQ/CC.

    Cheers everyone and congrats again!!

    John Dang
    [email protected]
     
  4. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    seriously, guys! come ON!! WS does NOT own the forest, nor do they have the ability to even get permits to close the trails that they are using for this event (or any of their other events).

    with that said, other forest users WILL be on the trails- motos, jeeps, hikers and yes, even other mtb'ers.

    now, i agree, starting w/the pack is not cool, nor is using any race support. from what i read, the only selfish tool was a bmx'er who insisted starting w/the pack, but did i read correctly- that the sho-air kids waited 45 min?? if so, and they had their own supplies stashed in the bushes, who f'ing cares that they were on the course?

    i'd be more irritated (not pissed mind you, b/c of what i just stated above) about the guys going UP hj... but hey, the trails aren't closed... vq/cc participants will have to expect to deal w/sharing the trails, whether it's hikers on singletrack or jerk mtb'ers going up the event's down trail, or vehicles flying on the MD...

    but to get so worked up over it, feeling so entitled that the forest is yours for the day, is also extremely selfish. just b/c the event riders paid a fee to ride, does not entitle them to less or no traffic...

    suck it up & just ride. if you can't handle it... then don't ride.

    go ahead... start the flaming. :bang:
     
  5. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because we stopped them......or else they would have gone with the rest of the pack. :)
     
  6. JD158

    JD158 New Member

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    Again only speaking for myself and Diego...we showed up after 5:30am(start time) got ready and then rolled to the gate, making sure the plan to start was after all the participants already left. When we rolled up at 5:45ish, yes there were some other guys that were held at the cones / near the check in point I assume, and we were asked to wait, which we did with big smiles and jokes.

    So real clear..we didnt plan to start with everyone. I remembered from last year doing the CC not to interfere with people and WS staff that are checking in participants and their numbers.:)
     
  7. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej Well-Known Member

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    I know and you were all cool about it. :)
     
  8. UR2KLOS

    UR2KLOS Senior Member

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    Comment deleted
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2010
  9. XCRider

    XCRider Member

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    CC ride report, sort of long...

    {I had no problem with other people on the trail. Most of them gave me a cheer and had no interference. Back to the RR...}


    I am tired this morning. That's good because it means I left most of it on the trail. For me, the Counting Coup yesterday was about as good as it gets. It started with a bit of a panic before leaving the house when our dog looked at me as if to say "WTH, it's not even 5am and it's dark and I'm NOT GOING OUT!!". This is not a small dog. You don't just pick her up and put her somewhere. Usually the wife handles these things, but she's in Phoenix on business and so me and the dog discuss stuff as the starting gun gets closer and closer. Finally, putting a bed down by the garage and big yank on the collar gets things resolved. By that time though, it's got to be clockwork at Blackstar, bike out, wheel on, pack on, water bottles in, lock car, go!

    If it wasn't prepared last night it's not relevant today. I roll through the tape lines, Jason yells some encouragement, and I merge into the tail end of the pack about where new gravel makes things interesting. At least my light is working well.

    Dust!! Hadn't thought about that problem, but now I remember from last year (and the OTH races at Irvine Lake). This could be a problem. Damned dog. I'm always slow to warm up though and I think maybe dealing with the dust is better than getting trampled by crazed VQ riders. Turns out there's nice fancy grading and plenty of space to pass on the climb. No worries. Now we just stick to plan and not blow it trying to set meaningless records up to Beeks. 1:13 works well for me, and I turn toward the radar ball with a hint of light in the sky. Graded here too; nice. A few weeks ago getting above Beeks took some finesse if you wanted to ride it. Across the top, a bit of gel and water. Now the ride to Motorway starts. Excellent surface, don't wash out the front wheel and things should be good. Sky's getting brighter as I drop down toward the Hagador climb. Set my gear, pace it a bit, grind.

    As I climb over the right sweep facing East suddenly the sun pops into view. Morning! I'm not much into organized religion, but do have some private beliefs. At that moment I know God is definitely watching over us and before I know it I'm around the towers and Pleasant's gate is on the radar. In training rides I've always hit that at a bit under 2h. I don't even look at the watch today. Doesn't matter, the real goal is in Trabucco wash. Some more gel and water. Ride. Looking for Eagle tanks and enjoy the view now since I know Maple Springs is going to be head down and not much to look at.

    I note how this year I'm not worried much about Motorway. Last year that thing was scary. I think I rode it 4 times and never had a clean run before the race. Since then I've ridden it a few times and now I find myself planning Maple Springs even before I get to the first checkpoint.

    Eagle tanks, start the last set of climbs. Feeling good, just pace things a bit and take advantage of the flats to get some time back. Motorway!! Yay, don't even look at my watch, make sure to let the downhill folks get by. A bit of a vison issue and riding HT still make Motorway a serious matter, even if I'm no longer concerned about it. That's now reserved for upper Holy Jim. No time to think though. Do it!

    Aid Station 1. Chaos! A very efficient young lady grabs my water bottles as I pour powder into one of them. She's got to be an angel. Certainly knows I can't afford to stop moving here, although my fuzzed brain can't quite figure out why there are so many bikes laying around and people chatting. Last thing; dump trash and replenish gel packs. Ride!

    Maple Springs pavement climb. I've done it 50 times. Maybe really 30, but sort of enjoyable in a perverse way. I know it's going to be tough, but the first part is just get legs moving and knees numb again. Look at watch. First time since Beeks I think. Surprise! I left the aid station at 3:09. Back track means I probably was 5m to 10m under my best up at Motorway. Certainly no worries on cutoffs. Now it's just plan the climb to hit Santiago Peak with nothing left. Experiment this year is to do on purpose what I was forced into last year: every 30 minutes get off and stretch/walk a bit, drink, do some gel, whatever. No stopping though!!

    Works well, maybe three breaks total, maybe didn't need them, don't worry it too much, think about other stuff. A bit of leapfrog with a singlespeeder for a while. Those guys are seriously tough. Even this morning my knees hurt thinking about it. We eventually parted, things are quiet for awhile until near the top a chatty group catches me. Sort of fun to discuss whether the massive bug clouds add something to our nutrition. Next to last turn I'm feeling good and know the flat approach to Four Corners awaits.

    A bit of a push, to cost me dearly later, and I'm through the gate at 4:53 on my watch. New PB by 14 minutes! Plan is to not stop moving, but I do get off and walk around a bit. Say hi to Tim and then walk up toward the gate and one of the toughest climbs in the route.

    Modjeska towers always seem so close when I leave 4C. Usually takes me 20 minutes for that section. Halfway up and the push into 4C comes back to me with cramps on both hamstrings at about the same time. No panic, but this is bad! Now it's a game of stretch, walk, ride, repeat. Takes 30 minutes to reach the Modjeska landing. Not so bad considering. Enduralytes, a lot of my remaining fluid, slow pace, I should be OK. I swing by the Joplin dropin. Mixed memories about the time I tried to ride that thing. Old Camp and amazing view to the Southwest. Keep the pace down and try to enjoy things.

    Santiago peak climb. End up pacing with another cramp victim. Mutual encouragement and he seems OK as we come around the back side and he pulls away. That's fine, I'm certainly not going to set any records down upper Holy Jim. Use the last of my drink to stave off any more cramps on the hope I can tough it out or beg some at Aid Station 2.

    UHJ, and another WS savior there with extra water. He'll prove to be key later. I let my chatty friends from Maple Springs go by, after they ask about VQ cutoff times. Sort of shocked, but I tell them 12, or 12:30. I don't look at my watch, but I think they're going to have to fly to make it. Wish them good luck. UHJ is always a trial for me, not so dangerous as Motorway, but only since I resolve to walk some of the nastier sections. Trail is extra nice today though and I actually ride more than I'd expected. A couple times pull to the side to let downhillers go by. At this point maybe only half are even bothering to say hi. Way too serious guys!! Only one slip and so apologies to an anonymous manzanita that used to be up there. No damage to me and just glad it wasn't poison oak.

    Lower HJ, and recognize occasional acquaintance Keith doing WS duties. He warns me about the hikers. No problem; I've been here before. Probably the most fun part of the ride ahead of me and after walking the dropin I even try to ride over the tree stump. Cramps threaten and so I stop that nonsense. Stretch and walk most of the uphill and start the st with a resolve to not slide the switchbacks. Actually ride some of the gully crossings that I usually walk. Most of the time I'm out solo and have an ingrained habit of avoiding injury. As I miss my line, and abruptly stop with temporary damage in the groin area, I'm reminded about how tired I am. OK, time to finish this thing, safely. That thought lasts about 10 minutes.

    A few hikers, some silly bikers actually climbing HJ. Everybody I meet coming up is really polite and most offer some encouragement. Very cool since I know they've seen at least 100 other riders ahead of me. 100 switchbacks later, I know it's 20, but seems like 100, I hear the water and know I'm nearly at the falls. I now am thankful I left my sleeves on since poison oak and I don't get along too well. Lots of hikers after this point. I trail a WS rider through the lower section, walking most of the water crossings, but taking a chance on some that I normally would avoid. Have the feeling I might make my time goal and so am willing to push it. Sort of fun to splash a bit. Wonder what it's doing to the bike though. Families step to the side, but I wait for some guys with dogs to get out of the way. Can't get away from the damned dogs. Leave the trail only a few feet behind the WS rider, but he's fast on the road and I won't see him again.

    Hit the Aid Station 2 and don't have to stop, don't even look, I know where I'm going and have about 15 minutes to get there. Time to fly!

    Trabucco Creek road sucks. No way around it! You can take an hour and look at the sights, or you can ride fast and suck it up. Hardtail and tired body actually cost me a bike frame on last year's ride. I think how ironic it is that I'm doing the exact same thing this year just to try to make an arbitrary mark on a clock. What the hell, I go for it and match speed with another rider for most of the way. Pass a number of SUV and trucks; that's always fun. Cramps start up again near the model plane facility, but I only back off enough to keep riding. No point in saving anything now.

    Hit the finish, hear my name and high 5 with Sherry. See 7:29 on the clock and some serious satisfaction. 45m better than last year's time. I'd called 7:30 as the goal almost a month ago. Completely amazed to be that close. Completely fried too. Wander around a bit, don't recognize anyone, talk for a while with Jason and decompress. Eventually picture time. Left my bike and feather just laying up there for almost an hour and nobody touched it. Was worried about the feather, less so about the bike. Not even sure it's ridable.

    Slowly cycle up to O'Neill and some chicken. First soda in a couple of months. No problem giving that up, but laying off the beer for a week was really tough. Chicken was actually pretty good this year. I remember last year's was dry and figure the 45 minutes gets me better food? Talk with Tom(?) from San Diego and Paul from L.A. for a while. Both VQ riders, both tell me CC is more fun since Horsethief is a nasty HAB.

    Still, my goal is to make that VQ cutoff. See you all next year, one way or another.
     
  10. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    so, if they were independents or weren't wearing the team kits, would it still be such a big deal??

    why am i not reading anything about the group that rode up harding, to 4 corners, over to joplin & down??? they were on the course as well... but since they aren't shop affiliated, i'm sure nobody really gives a rat's ass... and don't tell me b/c the length of their ride on the course makes any difference... they were still on the course mingling w/the paying riders...
     
  11. Keith B

    Keith B Professional Lion Tamer

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    Yesterday was my 4th CC and yet another Epic ride. I didnt feel too good at the start after the worlds worst pre-race dinner of a large pizza and a quart of milk. Blackstar was a blast and the extra darkness was actally pretty cool - getting onto the ridge before Beeks and looking back down the Canyon was an awesome sight. Already at this point I found myself riding amongst the guys that I would pass and be passed by for the rest of the day. Somehow I got cramp at Pleasants Peak - I often get cramp but never this early before so I was worried about actually finishing already. I clearly had too much air in the tyres (altho my Spesh track pump had said not) so I had to crawl down the steeps on Main Divide then crashed on Motorway but managed to jump off the bike before the floor came up and attacked me. Sarah was waiting for me at the bottom of Motorway with new bottles although it was getting hot already and I doubted whether 2 bottles would be enough when I was already cramping. I actually considered quitting here since my 4th run CC was purely to try and nip 5mins off my last time of 5hrs 5mins and cramp this early would kill that. Never the less seeing Sarah's excitement spurred me on. I had passed and re-passed a guy on a carbon 29er Stumpjumper and he re appeared on Maple Springs. I've got to thank this guy because every time he passed me it'd encourage me to up my pace a bit despite having to massage my calves and only turn the cranks as hard as I dared without my leg muscles spasming.
    Had to get off before the peak (by which poiint I was out of water) and give the legs a rest and massage as the cramp had got so bad. I think the endurolytes (Thank you Hammer!) were helping and I must have had one every 10mins or so. Stumpjumper man got to the peak at the same time as me at which point I realised he was also doing the CC. Another CC rider passed so I figured ditching a ton of air from the front was the only way to make time on the descent. It worked and I passed them both before UHJ. Hats off to the WS for the work on UHJ - never seen it in as good shape as this. Same with LHJ. Mouth was like a Mummy's tomb at this point with the heat and no liquid. I followed a VQ rider down HJ. He was a good technical rider but dialled the speed back on the straights. Could have saved some time by asking to pass him but I was greateful for the rest on my legs and for someone to make safety decisions for me. My only problem came with the driver of a Hummer on Trabuco creek road who nearly wiped me out trying to race me (!). I think a photographer got a good pick of me passing him and yelling my disapproval.
    I was amazed to see that I finished within a handful of seconds of my 2008 time - what are the chances of that?!! Trippy! Great ride though despite the aching belling and cramps. I said never again but well....maybe once more for my 40th birthday in 2 years?

    Just a note but maybe WS should have a top ten of both men and women at the finish instead of top ten men and a note to the top female finisher? I think it'd encourage more people to stick around at the finish and perhaps it'd be fairer to all the women who enter?
     
  12. DirtyGirlMonkey9

    DirtyGirlMonkey9 New Member

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    Just a suggestion, but if you have no shows, maybe you should offer a "Day of No Show Late Transfer" and offer the oppurtunity to people who show up that day a possible spot for a transfer fee/donation or even extend the transfer date. Provides more money to a good cause and lets those that wanted but couldn't get a spot participate if someone else can't make it. You can even have them start after everyone if you want to make sure the riders registered don't show. Again just a suggestion.

    I totally agree with Tink Bell too. I was actually thinking of going and riding along my friend for part of the race for support last minute because my mom didn't come out like planned and it was my friends first CC. I thought these events were to support good causes and encourage mountain biking. There will always be things you don't agree with, but just ride your ride & have fun! When I rode US Cup sagebrush this year there were cars with trailers driving up the paved climb with me during the race, but that's part of the challenge of having it in an area that's open. There are always gonna be obstacles when mountain biking. That's the fun part of it! :)

    So anyways can we plleeeaaassse get back to the experiences of riding a kick ass course and how it felt?

    Congrats to all that rode and participated & thanks to WS for having these events! :wave:
     
  13. bikerider

    bikerider New Member

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    I'm not going to jump on the whole, bash riders who were not paying thread. We as riders know and are told the course is not closed and to be careful, plus no one got in my way or slowed me down, other than a few other racers.

    So this was my third CC, the last 3 times I've done the VQ, but am just done with WHT. The course was probably the best I've seen it on race day.

    The start was very nice, temps were perfect once we were rolling. The pace was really fast and I knew I was going to pay for it later. My average HR up to Beek's was 162 with a high of 170, not an endurance pace for me. All was good though until I hit the motorway. I was cruising along and passing a few riders, and everyone was pretty cool about it. Then I got behind this guy that would not yield. I finally asked him if I could get by he said "yes pass on the left" As I go to pass him, he merged into and our bars touched. I landed on my elbow and my hand hit a rock. For awhile I thought my hand was broken, but soldiered on. It took a lot of wind out of my sails, along with the really hard pace early on Blackstar. I felt like I was going backwards through the field as so many riders passed me.

    I made up some time coming down HJ and yes I caught and passed the guy that made me crash on UHJ.

    On the road down Trabuco I was cruising along, not wanting to push the pace too hard, when some guy passed me (Ryan). I hopped on his wheel and chase was on. There were 2 other riders on my wheel and we pace lined it to the finish. I sprinted, everyone else was content just to ride it in. I finished with a respectable 5:35, with 5 minutes of my goal.

    Thanks to all the volunteers especially the guy that was sitting at the top of HJ with the head net on! Thanks for taking on a tough duty up there.
     
  14. Bergsteiger

    Bergsteiger Mr. Krisztian

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    I have an idea, why don't we keep this thread for happy ride reports and keep the back and forth about who's right in another thread, called "Poachers, right or wrong?"
    This thread is like an emotional roller coaster. :beer:
     
  15. joekeays

    joekeays Done and Done

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    Can people post a VQ or CC garmin file?

    Interested in seeing/ anayzing start Blackstar to Main Divide split times.

    Personal Best times are welcome as well.
     
  16. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, with our timing system this isn't possible. In addition all of our support personel out on course were given their rider info a few days before the event. This is why changes are not allowed a week before the event.:)
     
  17. solo_rider

    solo_rider New Member

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    Good idea KR.

    So bits and pieces of the race are coming back to me today. I want to thank a couple of riders on the course. I don't know their names but here we go.

    Thanks #1 to the rider on WHT with the bell and blue jeans. "Hear this bell? Thats for YOU MAN! If you stop you die!" LOL I was repeating that last line in my head on the last few switchbacks up WHT.

    Thanks #2 to the geared rider that passed me right before the finish on Trabuco road. Normally I'd be bummed getting passed at the finish but the rider said some kind words. I had anticipated getting passed by numerous people on that road, so I'm also glad he was the only one!

    Congratulations to Kimmy for finishing the VQ on a single speed. Absolutely amazing. Especially considering that no female SSers rode the VQ last year at all! I bumped into her and Greg training on Maple Springs & Saddleback peak a few times the weeks before the race. They definitely put their hard work in and I'm sure today they are relishing in their accomplishments.
     
  18. bvader

    bvader Long Live The Gorn!

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    5th CC for me...1st for my buddy Uncle Mikey it was a long and tough day for both of us.

    I did not feel right several day leading up to the event. I did not get the training volume in this year as years before.

    I was slower, did not have my power endurance etc and not clean on the descents. I did however FLY down the motorway... well OK I managed to FLY OFF my bike and landed hard on my A$$ in a rock (nice gouge and surrounding bruise starting to form today :) )..but hopped up and and got going..wasn't sure how it was going to feel later, it didn't really bother me.

    Got to Aid #1 about 15 minutes behind... the grind up MS was just that...but didn't stop much, maybe I fell behind on my water, stomach was not happy ever, but there was never any sense of speed, I think I lost another 15 min or so on the climb to the Peak.

    Had good UHJ / LHJ descents pretty clean but included another unscheduled dismount on LHJ at speed, but this was picture perfect, branch grabbed left handle bar and I un-clipped and stepped right over the bike and ran to a stop in about 15 yards. (FTR I don't think I fell all year on Motorway, UHJ/LHJ untill CC)

    Overall it was a grind, I finished 34 min off my PR at 7:18. I thought it was a bit warm (maybe I was dehydrated) and the bugs were pretty bad...they were actually biting...funny I got home and had one squished into the corner of my eye...Honey I am Home! :)

    But as usual lots of familiar people (All the WS folks, TAs, Carl, Kevin Keiths etc) and a good time...and Uncle Mikey Finished just fine after a couple bouts of cramps and another gashed sidewall on LHJ.

    Thanks to Everybody that makes this possible, even though it was not the most enjoyable thing I have done of late...I had a LOT of fun and happy I finished.

    Here is Mike getting his just reward

    IMG_0819.JPG


    ___________________________________________________
    Tool : One whom exhibits poor judgment, often self centered, and usually unaware the he/she is a Tool.
     
  19. bikerider

    bikerider New Member

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    I'm not sure how to post the garmin file. Any tips?
     
  20. Lovin

    Lovin Calmer 'n you are

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    I didn't mean to beat a hornet's nest, ok, maybe I did, but to get so worked up about a rider or group of riders is just lame as a representative of the WS.

    Let the group that poached and represented a group, legitimately or not, take the hit to their reputation and let them deal with it.

    To whine about it is just juvenile.

    The rant about the no-shows, completely legit.
     

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