Poll; Health Care overhaul?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by DISCO, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. gooseaholic

    gooseaholic Active Member

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    No prob dgastar. Sometimes I speak before I really think.
     
  2. CruIsRad!

    CruIsRad! New Member

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    With the election of GW Bush in 2000, we've already proven the power of stupidity in large groups.

    Not to mention, you failed to notice that I said, and meant quite literally, EVERY SINGLE PUBLICATION on the subject that I have managed to find gives the SAME result. I'm assuming one could find other research suggesting that a majority of those polled support Obama's plan. But I cannot find different results for Canadians claiming that they prefer their system and think it's better than ours.
     
  3. Abui

    Abui Active Member

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    I know what you said and what you implied. You accepted the polls as meaningful, i.e. when people say they like their system it means their system is better. Yet you say that large groups can be stupid. Conclusion: what the Canadians think is irrelevant.
     
  4. Erik MM

    Erik MM simulacrum

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    I don't see how it is a pointless argument. You made a point. Your point about risk is not valid. There is a difference between opinion and fact here. It is my 'opinion' however, that feudalism, Soviet-style "socialism" (meaning “state capitalism") or any system of exploitation and domination are bad. I think a better method of exchange (including health care) is possible. As cheesy as this is going to sound, I want Liberty and Justice for ALL (including health care).

    As far as (re)education is concerned, we all grow up in a world where we are ‘educated’ to buy the lie of the system that the ruling elites wish to preserve. We have all been to ‘re-education’ camps already. The history of forced schooling in our country is an interesting one indeed (I'm currently on chapter eight and I can't put it down being that I was on the inside and at the head of a classroom at one time).
     
  5. CalEpic

    CalEpic member

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    Are we still talking about healthcare system overhaul? If not, either start a new thread or use pm's.

    Thanks
     
  6. Erik MM

    Erik MM simulacrum

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    An 'answer' to your closing question is to fire the powers that be and give choice back to the people...but that's direct democracy, a virtual revolution. As you point out, “abuse” is not likely to stop. This is because ‘abuse’ is the rational outcome of a system set-up to preserve the interests of the ruling elite that exploit people. They like things the way they are, and they want to ‘conserve’ it.

    The idea of “cost principle” (I quoted in #4 above) only works with free associations/markets and voluntary exchange where the price for an item (like health care) should be the cost in providing it— no surplus value or profit/capitalizing/exploiting allowed. The true cost is “on the table” as the price. The cost equals its worth/value. That’s what I call fair. ‘Service for service, product for product, loan for loan, insurance for insurance, credit for credit, security for security, guarantee for guarantee…industrial organization…in place of government, contracts in place of laws,… economic forces in place of political power,…each citizen, town, and union the maker of their own contract…’ Proudhon. In other words, bye-bye profits, interest, and rent.

    Capitalism needs growth or it will die. That's why monopolies arise. That’s why casino capitalism exists as well. The problem with the latter is that they gamble with “our” money. Hell, we have bail-outs to resuscitate a dying system, a sinking ship, a burst bubble, a ponzi scheme. A great irony in this whole thing is that the welfare state (that includes health care) is an outcome of capitalist exploits. The surplus value of some people (at the bottom of the pyramid) is cut to the point where they survive/subsist, with little to no bargaining power. The outcome is ‘handouts’ from whom? The working class! They foot the majority of the bill (including health care), but the very people responsible for the necessity of welfare are at the ‘top’ stealing from the working class as well, and they aren’t really phased. Not only that, like some welfare recipients, the ruling elites don’t really “work” either! And somehow in all this confusion much of the working class gets pissed at the ‘welfare leeches’ when they should unite to storm the castle!

    I don't know how to fix this or that it can be when it appears ‘the state’ seems to protect the interests of the ruling elites, including their capital. I do believe in free markets, I just don't think capitalism is the way to go because I am a libertarian floating between mutualism and syndicalism.

    I don’t see a market (or health care system) with a “panel” or ‘vanguard’ w/ oversight as ‘free’ nor one that will ever have ‘my’ interests at heart. If however, I get to decide my fate with those around me, in my hood, at my workplace, I’ll feel better if I screw up instead of getting screwed by someone foreign to my life. You can bet I am going to do the best I can to not get screwed. I can’t say that a panel that I am not on will do this. I want all power to all people, for people to govern themselves, not be governed by directives from ‘above.’ That seems fair to me.
     
  7. Cilantro13

    Cilantro13 ...

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    Eric MM -- You make some interesting points.

    1. I am not advocating that pure capitalism is any better than socialism. I think the big-boss era showed the kind of abuses that are problematic with pure capitalism.

    I am simply saying that socializing health care is worse than fixing the abuses in the current system, and much better than widespread socialism.

    2. How can health care be a right? Are you saying that if a person and a doctor are in a plane crash and the doctor is fine, he has no choice but to help save the person's life? If so, how is that any different than slavery for the doctor? If you have the right, then he is constrained to act and therefore loses his agency to walk away.

    On that note, as a right do you feel you should be entitled to free medical care? Should you have to pay wages to nurses, doctors, staff, overhead costs, or costs for the equipment and supplies. If not free, what should you have to pay the doctor? Just his costs -- he isn't entitled to take home a penny more than it costs him to provide the care? How do you reward the risk he takes knowing if he screws up the patient will sue him for a million bucks?

    I think all of us arguing against Obamacare (really, it is Pelosi/Reid-care given Obama's lack of leadership in the matter) think we are better off in our flawed system than we would be otherwise. None of us are advocating that changes shouldn't be made, but we think it is better done reforming the current system. Tort reform, dissolving restrictions on insurance, tax incentives for having your own plan, etc.

    DirtVert:

    I see your point, but disagree that our capitalistic society has failed. We are the most prosperous country that has ever existed. In times past our industrial might was unparalleled. Now, our ingenuity and idea making is unparalleled. 50 years ago, people spent 85% of their earning on food, clothes, and shelter. Because of our system and its ability to reduce of cost of living (corporations play a big role), we now only spend well under 50% of our wages on food, shelter, and clothing.

    But I think you hit on the difference in point of view between conservatives and liberals. Liberals seek a utopia, and therefore see the status quo as always broken and failing. Conservatives see the world as it is -- with flawed and selfish people, but we put faith in the individual for contributing what they can to the solution. Conservatives don't see the world as perfect, but accept negatives provided the net result is positive.

    To whoever made the point on Cobra:

    COBRA isn't any more expensive than your prior plan. It is just you weren't paying for it all when you were employed -- your employer was paying the portion that you now have to pay. The cost for the plan is the exact same.

    I know because I am on COBRA because I think my new employer's plan costs too much. Why does it cost too much? Because the prices got jacked way up when a bunch of super-high risk individuals with very costly hospital visits and pregnancies with major complications all hit last year. The insurance company is just passing along the risk of having these people part of our group.
     
  8. CruIsRad!

    CruIsRad! New Member

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    Using your same logic, what you think is irrelevant. Might want to try another tactic! Removing all meaning from debate doesn't leave anyone much room for making progress, does it?!

    That said...I tend to think that what the Canadians think about Canadian health care may hold a little more water than what Non-Canadians think about Canadian health care. But, if you want to ignore the critiques and reviews of those with actual experience on the subject, and listen only to those who are arguing with no basis in experience or fact, so be it.
     
  9. dgaspar

    dgaspar I like to burn things

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    I actually wasn't saying your argument was pointless (even though I disagree with it). What I meant was that it was pointless for us to continue the off-topic argument. Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you as it was not my intention.
     
  10. Erik MM

    Erik MM simulacrum

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    1. The socialism and health care I envision is more than a little different than authoritarian state "socialism." The change I want isn’t likely to happen because it would require a myriad of “reforms” and downright “radical” ones at that. Being a serf of the state is not my (libertarian) vision of socialism. I want people to be able to freely manage their own affairs, even health care. I think we are left with more of a predicament than a choice now, even with the intended ‘fixes.’

    2. By health care being a right I mean everyone “should” be able to seek and find the health care they require.

    In regards to the plane crash scenario the doctor does (should) have the freedom to walk away— I am for free markets/associations and voluntary exchange, no coercion. As you point out, it would be analogous to slavery if the doctor was forced to assist in a situation they did not want to. I can see where you are going with the “right” issue— the patient has a right, the doctor doesn’t. I think they both do. The plane wreck victim could be brought elsewhere, or if not then I suppose they would die.

    The above is related to your medical lawsuit question. Is it “malpractice?” Currently, doctors aren’t paid in relation to the risk they take in being sued. Nevertheless, if the patient makes a choice to go under the care of a doctor they are taking a risk that it may not turn out. Oh well, they should be made aware of the risk/chance of failure/mishap. Should there be compensation for a medical mishap, and who should pay? I think a case-by-case examination would be necessary, but for the most part I would say no lawsuits, because the patient knew the chances of failure and freely chose the doctor to ‘trust.’

    As far as “entitlement” goes, I think people are entitled to health care, assuming it is via free association and voluntary exchange. The “exchange” is payment. How much should the health care staff should be paid? I’m not saying they shouldn’t be paid, just no more than the cost (w/ labor) to provide care. Just how much this will be I can't say. It may be more than now, it may be less, probably the latter, but then again the cost of living would fall dramatically if the mutualist 'cost principle' is used by those that decide to exchange goods and services with that principle. Or screw mutualism and go the route of lib-com and there is no such thing as money!? Way too big to get into here.

    What if the health care staff can’t be paid by the patient? This is where the following socialist mantra comes into play: "from each according to their ability, and to each according to their needs." As I said earlier, we (often) have no control over our health, and sometimes how much money we make. Having to choose between eating and a roof versus a needed surgery shouldn’t be a privilege in my mind. Should I have to pay for the accident or genetic defects of some else? How, via taxes and/or some other means like insurance? I’ll just say that taxes redistributes wealth in a way that makes me ask: is the original ‘distribution' screwed up, and why can’t it be changed?

    Change, yes it seems most of us want change, but as you can see I am more than a little bit…different than most.

    btw, I ran across this perspective: http://www.pnhp.org/
     

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