Poll; Health Care overhaul?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by DISCO, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. DISCO

    DISCO Banned

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    Someone had to kick the hornets nest, in all honesty though once voting I'm done in this thread till the vote clock stops. There are sure to be lots of convincing Pro's and Con's but in the end we can all be heard and understood simply by voting.:?: It seems today that uncompetitive businesses are the taxpayers problem, and when you look at this chart of current spending does pouring more money into government health care look sustainable?

    [​IMG]

    More than Half of our tax dollars already support Govt benefits and interest expenses. At what point do we conclude that not only is the goal impossible without more revenue (taxes) but irrelevant unless some of the current fat can be shed:-k. Instead if trying to make something from scratch, it would be better to see attention paid to better management and planning of what we already need a better plan for (U.S.P.S. for one). Just like buying a house one should plan, make a budget early on, and always think long term instead of just rushing in and hoping for the best:lol:. When you look at what all these bailout's have done to the taxpayer's balance sheet, the question of an exit strategy would seem valid.

    [​IMG]

    When states are scurrying to fill gaping budget holes how can the Fed be so optimistic as to assume more growth will simply absorb the discrepancy. I'd like to hear the answer of who is picking up the check since the bag will likely extend for decades if Social Security and Medicare stay constant, let alone if the exponential growth forecast occurs.

    It's a question not only of the current line item, but for the future direction in which we will sail. Whether to drop anchor, store up provisions and wait for the wind to change or to sail against it and hope for the best[-o-].

    Poll is up, and the future is yours to shape.
     
  2. DISCO

    DISCO Banned

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    Good thing the poll worked, here we go with more commentary.....

    ON the home page, look down to "filter forums" and choose what you would not like to see.
     
  3. dirtvert

    dirtvert Whine on!

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    oh boy...

    couldn't we just invade france and take their health system. it seems (from personal experience) to work pretty well. and talk to almost any doctor and they'll tell you that the system's not working right now. med schools can't even get enough students to become g.p.'s because there's no money in it...

    i heard a story today that said there's about a trillion/yr in waste in the current system. and what do we get for that--half the people either don't have insurance or can't afford for anything to go wrong. longterm--especially w/ an aging population--we can't afford to keep the current system going.

    either way, scare tactics by the extremists (funded by insurance companies) are sure to water down any meaningful reform.
     
  4. Chewyeti

    Chewyeti Circus Bear

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    aint happenning.
     
  5. dirtvert

    dirtvert Whine on!

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    ^ reform, the poll, or your manhole date...
     
  6. dgaspar

    dgaspar I like to burn things

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    I agree that the current healthcare system is in need of repair. However, a complete overhaul by nationalizing the health care industry is a bad idea. The government should not be able to take (and then spend) anymore of my money or poke its nose into my personal affairs anymore than it already does.
     
  7. 92se-r

    92se-r Active Member

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    if you want your next visit to the er to be run like the dmv, then you should be all for nationalized health care.
     
  8. dirtvert

    dirtvert Whine on!

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    as it is now, most people's primary care is the e.r.

    we are the last industrialized country to figure this out. losing your job shouldn't equal losing your health care.

    it's a national disgrace that only the rich in this county should have adequate healthcare. and i wonder if all the people crying about "socialized" healthcare want to shut down medicare. geez...
     
  9. duke777

    duke777 Active Member

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    Last time I checked I thought I left China, now some how I feel like back home.

    Are we going to nationalize food sources too? Food stamps anyone? Wait that's already happening.#-o
     
  10. Chewyeti

    Chewyeti Circus Bear

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    Less Government NOT more.
     
  11. dirtvert

    dirtvert Whine on!

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    so we should just give more control, money, and power to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies so that most of our citizens can continue to have sub-par (or no) insurance? i never even had health insurance until i got my first teaching job at age 39.

    what we have now is healthcare for the rich/elite, and preventative medicine is pretty much non-existent. pathetic...

    btw- conservatives should be for universal healthcare. all of europe has some form of it--and with fewer tax dollars per person going to healthcare than the u.s. AND we spend a higher percentage of our gdp on health and have worse results AND health costs add $800-$1400 to each car made in the u.s. and a significant amount to other goods.

    i'm all for less government. we could cut military spending by 20% and save enough for every citizen to have decent health coverage.
     
  12. ericfoltz

    ericfoltz Active Member

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    I'm just curious if the opponents of a National Health Care System think that we should get rid of Medicare, Veterans and the Military Medical Systems?

    All of these are run by the Federal Government and seem to work pretty well (I've used the Military and VA with no complaints).

    The VA system actually beats all private health care in the U.S. for customer satisfaction, service and level of care per dollar spent.

    Maybe we should also get rid of the Military's medical system and turn it over to private enterprise. As someone who used the Army Medical System for many years, I would say that it is far superior to anything I've seen as a civilian.

    Here's the deal, if you are going to oppose health care reform because you don't think the government should be involved in "National" or "Socialized" medicine, than stop the hypocrisy and call for dismantling Medicare, VA and the Military Systems also. If you oppose "socialized" medicine, you have to oppose these also.

    And just an FYI, between these three systems, the U.S. already runs one of the largest "Socialized" medical systems on the planet.

    The easy answer to all of this would have been to just say that as of ____________ (insert date), all citizens of the United States are now covered under the Medicare System.

    Sorry all you medical insurance employees out there but I happen to agree with the administrator of the Swiss Health System who said "We think that it is immoral to profit from a persons health problems."
     
  13. DISCO

    DISCO Banned

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    Just tune up the clunker till we win the lottery

    Right, so it sounds like with proper management and application a current program could be expanded. But this is America and the push is to build bigger and better hospitals and an entire new system instead of fixing what already exists. I know you guys keep selling on benefit but the only straight answer so far is that no one can estimate with any degree of accuracy the actual cost to make it happen.

    The sheer size of such a program will dwarf what already consumes more than half the existing budget. So far no one can explain who will get the bill, as much as I could use coverage there is no way I am kiting a check to get it.

    Fiscal irresponsibility has gotten us to the worst climate our generation has faced so far and the way out is not more spending. There is far too much overlap and ineptitude and the only way to change is to measure, adjust, and improve. Despite the benefits how long will it take uncompetitive business to pay back all the money that could have funded such "change"?
     
  14. asian fury

    asian fury You give love a bad name

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    I don't know what kind of medical coverage some of you have, but I want some. I can't stand my medical coverage. You're covered, we know you're covered, the service you got is covered, but you didn't fill out your forms in triplicate, so we won't pay.

    I don't know that gov't is the way to go, I don't think we'll ever find out. Insurance lobbies are too big and are making too much money off us to find out.

    The Good: Gov't insurance will bring out all the crap and games doctors and insruance companies play. (Doctor's overcharging and overtesting for everything knowing that insurance will pay for it.)

    The Bad: Gov't healthcare will turn into the DMV.

    The Ugly: Both sides of the aisle and the lies they are spewing about the subject. Ex: The left: Gov't healthcare wil create a budget surplus. The right: Gov't healthcare will fund abortions. Both are crap, both are being told as fact.
     
  15. dstepper

    dstepper (R.I.P.) Over the hill

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    WHY!
    :steppie:
     
  16. Abui

    Abui Active Member

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    The Swiss are such hypocrites. The largest drug company in the world is Swiss (Novartis).

    The military pays full expenses for medical school in return for years of service. It gets doctors because the doctors know that after military service they'll be high earners. With socialized medicine (lower earning) the appeal will drop. The socialist worker's creed, "We pretend to work because they pretend to pay us."

    Medicare will be bankrupt by 2019.

    VA Hospitals - lots of complaints.
     
  17. 92se-r

    92se-r Active Member

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    Worse results? I'm just curious as to why ANYONE comes to the US for healthcare from other countries, especially if the healthcare in their own country is so much better. It's pretty well known that if you are rich enough, and you are in another country, you come to the US for treatment.

    Why is it that so many medicinal breakthroughs come from the US?

    Do you have any idea how much money is required to get a drug to market? Do you have any idea how many years a drug company has to bleed money before they get a windfall, IF they get a windfall from the drug? My wife was a scientist in the Biotech industry for years. She saw firsthand how ALL drugs are basically a shot in the dark and most never even reach the first stage of FDA testing. Drug companies NEED to gouge because on drugs, their patents only last I believe 7 years before they can be made generic.

    Do you honestly think any drug companies would exist if they could not make money? Do you think corporations would exist to invent drugs just for the good of mankind? Sorry, but they still need to pay scientists, and without profits, no paychecks.

    In the same manner, I guarantee you one of the first things nationalized healthcare will do is fix pay for healthcare professionals. Again, why do people become doctors? Sure they have a calling, but so do I. I want to mountain bike all day, but know I can't make any money doing it. If you have doctors go into 300k in student loans for med school and come out making 80k, I bet you that the number of doctors would shrink.

    It's sad to say, but I honestly believe that the number one motivator for humans in general is money. It's just how life works. I honestly believe a large number of people, especially young people CHOOSE not to have health insurance. It's a calculated risk. My wife recently decided to switch careers and become a nurse. Most of her classmates do not have health insurance. They have access to health insurance through the school for $180/month. Most did not choose to take up the school on this offer. However, some of them have car payments that are double this. Lack of opportunity or choice? You decide.

    Also, my wife is already working at the local hospital. You would not believe the stuff that goes on there and the type of people that go there. There's one guy that is diabetic that reuses needles because he doesn't think he's dirty, and rarely tests his blood sugar levels. He also carries around a suitcase full of chocolates. Awesome. One of her classmates spent 8 hours alternating with another nurse, doing CPR on a heroin OD case. Preventitive medicine? Yeah right. Even I'm guilty of this, as are most guys. We don't go to the doctor till something hurts.

    I think the fundamental problem with our current healthcare system is fraud, waste, and people just don't give a crap about their health. The system itself works. If it didn't, people would be dying from unhealthy lifestyles, and I honestly believe people would care more about living a healthier lifestyle. Why is it that a majority of Americans are now obese? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that being obese will give you medical complications. However, our healthcare system keeps these people alive at the expense of other healthy individuals.

    I think most people on this forum are the exception, not the norm. We live active, healthy lifestyles. I honestly don't know of a solution because you have every right to live an unhealthy lifestyle.



     
  18. dirtvert

    dirtvert Whine on!

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    it's not like we have to invent this--every other industrialized country, as well as many developing countries, have some form of universal healthcare. we just need to refine what's already been proven to work.

    what we can't afford is the status quo (pay or die). the republican leadership are little more than obstructionist panic-mongers ("the gov't wants to euthanize old people"). reform will happen with them or without them...
     
  19. OTHRIDER

    OTHRIDER Active Member

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    There was an interesting article in the Register the last few days. A surprisingly large percentage of doctors admitted to ordering extra tests not to scam more money but to cover their rear ends in case of malpractice law suits - yes, knowing full well it will be covered.
     
  20. One_Track_Mind

    One_Track_Mind New Member

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    The Gov't can't handle the responsibilities they have now, why should they take on healthcare too!? The Gov't needs to gain control of their spending and programs by shrinking, tightening their belts just like everyone else in the country. Socialized healthcare in the US will be another expensive disaster just like Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. What we need is affordable healthcare that is there when we need it, that doesn't say no to every claim and that doesn't make it's rates unaffordable when we get sick. I go to the doctors once, maybe twice a year (knock on wood) and I don't want to pay for somebody's insurance that smokes, drinks, eats poorly and doesn't exercise. I'll cover my own a$$, you cover yours, thank you very much...
     

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