knolly, transition or….???

Discussion in 'The Adrenaline Factory' started by tink bell, Jul 12, 2011.

  1. kyle M

    kyle M Dirty Drunx

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    You really should give Ed a chance.. He's a nice guy. He said he had butterflies after the ride sunday.. (he said after he read your post it broke his heart) :(
     
  2. ManInAShed

    ManInAShed New Member

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    Ah. Yeh, it is tanky.

    I've found the DHX also offers some nice rate curves, and several pleasing sensations, ranging from supple slick & quick on the trail, to, seconds later, the serene feeling of high speed, sailing effortlessly... gracefully ...through the air ...into the trees... no, but I dunno, I'm a weight weenie when it comes to XC race stuff, but the responsiveness of a coilover is pretty hard to sacrifice once you've grown accustomed.
     
  3. Varaxis

    Varaxis Trail Ninja

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    I'd be surprised if she can't fit on a XS 575, but I can understand not fitting on the ASR7 and maybe the SB-66. Yeti's known to have longer top tubes, which is nice for those who like to use really short stems with a long ETT (5'7" 23.5" ETT and 50mm stem on my XC bike). As for other parts of the fit of the ASR7, it's really tall up front with very little standover clearance and I'm on the smallest size it comes in. I guess I'm fortunate. It feels like an XC bike with 7" of travel, which makes everything so much easier that you feel compelled to horseplay and follow rougher lines to have fun.

    Short answer: DHX Air 5.0 over the RP23 if it were between those two.

    Long version: I assume you mean DHX Air 5.0 and not DHX RC4, since you want lightweight. Did the stock DHX Air (3.0 or 4.0?) on your Minxy have the air valve on the piggyback boost valve or did they factory set that and remove the air/schrader valve (I know Specialized likes to do this to "minimize user error")? The DHX Air is a lot more adjustable and better suited for longer DH runs. If you're doing 5+ min DH runs over rough terrain, the RP23 might suffer from heat issues and you would experience what is considered fade (loss of damping effect; typically more notable on the rebound side of things). Coils shocks can fade too; it's the oil that heats up that is the main issue. The extra oil in the DHX's piggyback reservoir helps to counter that and that piggy back has a couple of adjustment options which help a great deal in tuning the suspension to feel how you like. The RP23 comes factory tuned (the sticker on it shows its tune, velocity: L/M/H, rebound: L/M/H, boost valve: ###) and you'd have to send it to a tuner to get retuned internally as the only adjustments you can do on it really are spring rate, rebound damping, and propedal. On the DHX Air 5.0, you can tune the bottom out, boost valve (helps compression damping for the mid stroke and beyond, adjusting according to where the shock is in its stroke), rebound, and pro pedal adjustment which kind of handles low speed compression damping (a bit more complex than that, but the effect is similar; it's called platform or a delay). There's more adjustment if you have the ProPedal dial instead of min/max switch; I just leave my ProPedal switch on max 80% of the time and don't care for the dial. I don't have much pressure in the boost valve, since I don't do much big stuff, so I have it set to have just enough damping that would be good enough for 80+% of my riding. Dunno why people think ProPedal should be lock-out. Some other shocks have lock-out, but riding a shock on lock-out is just asking for it to be damaged--if you take a big hit from landing a drop or are not able to unweight and hit a large bump with full inertia/force (riding fast DH), you can blow the shock's seals. The DHX has more volume in its air chamber too, which makes the spring livelier and more linear than the RP23. It's like going from 2.2 tires to 2.4 tires (with slightly lower pressure) on a rigid bike. Hard to explain, but it's easier to feel the feedback of its action (which may also make issues more apparent).

    There's more to it than that, like leverage ratio/rates according to stroke, shock length, rider weight, etc. You would really need to pull up a leverage ratio curve chart (leverage rate vs travel/stroke) for whatever frame you get to see how you should tune a shock and see if the DHX Air would be easy to tune for it. There are some bikes that have upward parabolic leverage rate curves (curves up and then back down, like a bell), starting low leverage at the beginning of the stroke, ramping up for "plush" mid stroke, and ramping down for more bottom out resistance and "bottomless" feel. Some people follow "rules of thumb" a bit too strictly on the DHX Air on these such bikes and lower their spring rate to get 30% sag and can end up with wallowy feeling mid strokes. Heavy riders (200+ lbs) on bikes with short shocks (typically vertically mounted ones; Reign X has a 200mm/7.875" shock length with 2.25 stroke) will likely have issues getting it to feel good, if they ever felt the smoothness of a coil in the past. Considering the Knolly has a very low leverage rate, combined with a very long shock, and your size, you should be able to enjoy the weight savings and adjustability and get fairly close to a coil feel with the least amount of compromise. Air shocks suffer from a non-linear spring rate and stiction, but for mtn bike applications, those are made rather small compromises, though, the more the shocks are miniaturized, the more these issues seem to pop up again.

    I know there's types out there that like to get their shocks/suspension to feel how they like it and make it theirs (as they own it) and not let the manufacturers dictate what they think it should feel like ("for the masses") and will send their stuff out to PUSH, CR-1, Avalanche, etc. and may be confused as to why the DHX Air isn't something some of them work on. You can control the pressure sensitivity of the boost valve yourself by just adding/removing air into the piggyback reservoir (that pressure also further mitigates fade). Some people don't like the progressive damping and want a more linear feel with less damping and some leverage ratios don't play nicely with the boost valve, which makes it feel harsher and/or too plush in the beginning of the stroke, so it's all situational. Anyways, there's not much to be tuned internally on the DHX Air 5.0. Boost Valve is the most sophisticated damping (I might be a little biased) for all-around riding, providing a well rounded feel, since it's "position based damping" rather than "speed based" (shock compression speed, not your speed). It basically takes the properties of an air spring (the more air is compressed, the higher pressure it gets) and closes/opens up at a rate depending on how much pressure is on it, which provides seamless progressively stronger damping the further in the stroke you get. It basically turns the dial on compression damping typically found on other shocks, automatically. A well damped shock can handle so much more than an simple damped shock (think of a dune buggy jumping 40 ft with 12" of travel--no way it would stick the landing with a crappy designed damping circuit), though some damping designs won't ever go away like shim stack designs, since they simply work, are simple, and can be tuned easily by changing the shim stack. This design simply evolves and morphs into designs like found in the DHX Air. Things change when you want something that is externally adjustable, yet need it to be miniaturized and in a good position at the same time. I guess that's part of the reason why Fox has been flipping its designs one year, to get adjusters to where people prefer and then finding it flipped it back another year, since it's simpler and makes more sense to the suspension designers/engineers.

    Since the DHX Air is available as a stock option on the Delirium, it should be fine. I'm sure they did their homework and some testing on it.

    Example of leverage ratio curve charts (curve on the left transplanted onto curve on right for comparison):
    [​IMG] LeverageRatioCurve.jpg

    Considering the same spring rate and shock length:
    Higher leverage: requires less force to compress shock
    Lower leverage: requires more force to compress shock, less strain placed on shock and frame
    A leverage ratio of 2.0 is considered to be among the lowest; 3.0 is considered high. Telescopic forks have a 1.0 leverage ratio. You'd use a lighter spring (lower psi) for lower leverage designs and higher psi for higher leverage. Coil spring users would divide travel by shock stroke to find average leverage rate to help them find the best spring rate. Progressive rates usually start with a high leverage ratio that steadily decreases and are typically preferred for a bottomless feel.

    Example of how to read/analyze it: the 575 looks to be designed for a small volume air shock, where the low leverage at the beginning makes it more efficient to pedal, since you need more force to compress the shock and the high ratio mid-stroke overcomes the low volume's tendency to ramp up faster, to keep the shock feeling as plush as the beginning, then it ramps down to low leverage to enhance the ramping up of the air shock to provide bottom out resistance (since it needs more force to compress the shock, on top of the shock's pressure ramping up). Not surprisingly, it comes spec'd with a RP23 with a 200mm (5.785") length with 2.0" stroke. Most likely custom tuned from Fox with this kind of leverage ratio curve in mind.

    Sorry, for the long unorganized write up, if you read through the long version. It may not be 100% accurate either, since I've only studied the subject for a short while.
     
  4. herzalot

    herzalot Well-Known Member

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    Good Lord - what the hell was that? Impressive, I guess.

    No air shock will feel as good as the CCDB. The Delirium isn't light to begin with, so....

    If you're going air, I doubt you'll feel a difference in performance between the RP23 and the DHX Air, except the 1/2 lb of static weight. My problem with the RP23 is it looks goofy when matched with a beefy 160mm+ fork. How can the best XC shock also be the right shock for my gravity rig, right? Get the one that makes you smile!
     
  5. monstertiki

    monstertiki New Member

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    I've thought about the idea of getting a new rp23 or a pushed monarch for my delirium. Some people have gone the route of an airshock to make the delirium more trail oriented and seem to be happy with it. I think the lightest one can get a delirium is maybe a little under 34lbs. Mine is currently weighing in at around 36lbs maybe a little lighter sometimes depending on whether or not I swap out stuff.

    This mtbr thread shows some really nice delirium builds.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=643189

    Tink if you need help building a delirium or whatever bike you decide on I'd be happy help you out.

    My current build (which changes frequently) btw is:

    2010 small delirium frame
    Fox Float 180 rc2 fit
    CCDB w/steel spring 350lbs
    Cane Creek 1.5 angleset
    ODI flight control bars 700mm
    ODI rogue grips
    Stem- Raceface atlas 50mm
    Saint Brakes 203mm rotors
    slx 170mm crankset geared 32/26
    Raceface Bottom Bracket
    bbg bashguard
    Sram x9 mid cage rear deraileur
    Sram x9 shifters
    Shimano xt front deraileur
    blackspire stinger chainguide
    blackspire sub 4 pedals
    Hadley hubs
    Sram 990 cassette 11-34t
    Flow wheels
    front tire - Clutch 2.3 2bliss control
    rear tire - Maxxis minion 2.5 dhf exo
    ksi 950 seatpost 31.6
    SeatpPost clamp- chromag
    Seat - wtb rocket 5 or chromag trailmaster
     
  6. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    ^^^ LOVE the brakes!!! i swear there's either something wrong w/my minxy's brakes, or they're just crap compare to your knolly's! i had them checked/worked on tonight. (tks clinky!!!!) might have to look into saints for my new rig!!!
     
  7. thomaswildchild

    thomaswildchild Active Member

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    Love my saints! expensive but worth it!
     
  8. Chewyeti

    Chewyeti Circus Bear

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    Ed, whatabout a vivid air shock?
     
  9. monstertiki

    monstertiki New Member

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    Probably a good option if u wanted a dh air shock. Since I already have a ccdb I wanted something on the other end of the spectrum. Another air shock to check out is the air version of the ccdb which should be available soon.
     
  10. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    ok, dhx in the rear... and a what up front? fox 36 180?? and was thinking saints just bc of ed's rig, but my coworker suggested xt's since they're lighter (& so am i)... thoughts?
     
  11. reerun

    reerun New Member

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    read the reviews on the Marzocchi Roco TST air, its heavier than the DHX but performance wise it pisses all over the dhx
     
  12. monstertiki

    monstertiki New Member

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    I think you will be fine with xt brakes. Like you already pointed out, you are way lighter than me. Make me feel fat why don't you... but back on topic, xt brakes with a 203mm rotor in front and 185mm in the rear should work very well for you plus you will save a little on weight. Thats what i would have went with but the saints came on the bike when I bought it. As far as forks go, I love the float 180 rc2 fit. There are other good options out there but out of the forks I have had and tried in the last year it's my favorite.

    Rear shock wise there are so many too choose from but keep in mind the small frame might not accommodate certain shocks. I asked knolly about the manitou isx-6 evolver shock and they said it wouldn't work on the small frame. Push sells a monarch plus which is getting good reviews but it's a little pricey, however it will be setup tuned for a girl of your petite stature so maybe it's worth it. The roco looks nice too so as far as rear shocks go if possible try a few if you have access to them before you buy one.

    You'll need an 8.5 x 2.5 shock, the hardware is 22mm x M8 on the front of the shock and 44mm x M8 for the rear of the shock.
     
  13. Varaxis

    Varaxis Trail Ninja

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    XT discs are really strong, at least the latest gen ones. I'm on the '10 version. I rode the '12 version at the Jenson '12 XT/Intense demo and they were every bit as strong (actually stronger, but have to consider they were new; the bikes looked to be unridden). They make it feel like you can run a smaller rotor size. They're so strong that they feel on-off, but still have feathering modulation, and really make your tire's performance under braking apparent. It felt like I could track stand on a fairly steep rock roller with them. The new levers are a bit shorter too, which turned out to be a great fit. I was surprised that their demo bikes had the levers in the exact place I liked them; I had to move them inboard of the shifters on my '10 bike since they were so long and I'm a 1-finger braker and these were set up outboard, with about a 15mm gap between the clamp and the grip. I haven't ridden Saint. I spent most of my time on Avid Elixir, which have become my standard (can't stand brakes to be any weaker and increased my appreciation of good modulation).

    I don't have any suggestions on forks. I run a Fox 36 TALAS 160 RLC '10 which I have no complaints about. I like the TALAS feature to adjust geo and weight distro, but it has its downsides too. Sometimes I like the higher BB for climbing up rocks and it's not bad at all riding at full travel. It's just nice to be able to dial in weight distro and balance that feels like my XC bike, closer to a 50/50 balance (hard to describe; it's a Trek/GF), rather than feel like I'm a low rider with most my weight on the back and my front end up so high. Not to say the 65/35 R/F weight distro is a bad thing. It's kind of the weight distro you should have, but I was used to 50/50 and my first descent I quickly learned I needed to adjust my riding position to be more over the front to the point my chin was in front of the stem.

    Check out the rest of the '12 XT stuff while you're at it.
     
  14. 92se-r

    92se-r Active Member

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    Wow, I never knew the Minxy existed. It is low and slack, awesome. What don't you like about it? It's funny i saw this thread today. I just saw a Minxy today at Noble. At first glance, I thought it was a 6point like my buddy and I have.

    Stay away from the DHX Air. It sucks. There's a reason no one tries to tune that shock, it's not even worth it. Try a Pushed Monarch. If I recall correctly, Darren feels like this is the closest thing to a coil. I've also had good experiences with Roco Airs, WC and TST.

    For brakes, the Saints are way overkill. If you like the feel of the Shimanos, get the XT's. Elixirs are also nice.
     
  15. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    pink bars & cranks? yeah, that was me! ;)
     
  16. 92se-r

    92se-r Active Member

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    Lol, small world. So why are you replacing the minxy? Howd it do at noble?
     
  17. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    got a smokin deal on a knolly delirium… should be here by end of next week or beginning of next… wanted something a little 'nicer'. it did *ok* at noble. always feel like the front end it loose. have checked the qr through axle is snug & the headset, too, but something rattles on bumps… plus my brakes suck ass. suspension was fine. only had trouble on the stairway. didn't carry enough speed, but i was worked from the heat & pretty much gave up. ended up walking the last few feet after getting hung up 3x or so. :( overall, had a blast!
     
  18. tink bell

    tink bell the food fairy

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    are fox's that much more superior to rockshox? the lyrik solo air is 1/2 lb lighter than the 36 float 180... and the float is white & i can get the lyrik in black... it'll match my bike better. ;) yeah, i'm a gerl, what can i say?? i currently ride a lyrik solo air on my minxy & it seems fine...
     
  19. speckledtrout

    speckledtrout Active Member

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    I have liked all my rock shox forks better than my fox forks. my 2 cents.
     
  20. CalEpic

    CalEpic member

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    The longest travel Lyrick is 170 mm. For 180 mm in Rock Shox you'll need to jump up to the Totem which is heavier but has 40 mm stanchions. Fox with FIT damper is pretty nice. More plush than my Totem.
     

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