Crappy Suspension

Discussion in 'The Workshop' started by Fearless Fly, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. Fearless Fly

    Fearless Fly anachronistic and impulsi

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Brea, CA
    Home Page:
    OK, so MTB suspension is getting crappy.

    Most companies going with air shocks with poor damping and going off in strange tangents that have been proven not to work in other offroad suspension systems.

    I think at this point it should be clear that a coil spring is the best way to go but they are heavy. It should also be clear that shim stacks are way better than other systems including SPV's, Rock Shox Rabbit or Mission Control or the specialized epic type shocks for most riders.

    Why do companies continue to produce air shocks when a Ti coil shock is similar in weight?

    That is my rant for the day!

    b436096a.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2014
  2. herzalot

    herzalot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2008
    Messages:
    4,754
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EdgeUCater
    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Avalanche will save us all!
     
  3. von

    von Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Tax Auditor
    Location:
    SGV
    Craig said he is getting old. We might need to be looking towards Darren over at push!:(
     
  4. herzalot

    herzalot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2008
    Messages:
    4,754
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EdgeUCater
    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Push doesn't do what Craig does. We better get someone into Craig's shop pronto to learn his trade secrets. Trek's Penske is about where Craig was 10 years ago.
     
  5. BROWNIE

    BROWNIE I'm good at recess!

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    work
    Location:
    So. CA
    Price point, if you look at current MtnBk suspension it's in the same stage MX was when they went to a single rear shock, lots of good bad ideas on all the manufactures at one point and time.
    You have it right Gabe, proper shim stack and edge prep of the shims are key in making shocks and forks work properly.
     
  6. F.A.D.

    F.A.D. POWERED BY MUSUBIS

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,587
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Feeds me
    Location:
    Alta Loma
    I think that it's all about cost. Imagine the different rate coils that the local shops would have to carry in order to account for all of the various rider weights and style of riding. Also, do you think that the local bike shop level would be able to figure out the proper shim stack for the given spring rate along with the proper weight oil? I think even Gabe would agree that suspension tuning is always going to be a compromise of sorts. There is no current tech available for "one setting does it all".

    I can't blame the mfgr's for going with the broad brush approach, as air set-up allows them to hit the majority of targets. The ones that have figured out what exactly they want out of the suspension can always fine tune their own, or find a resource that can provide it.
     
  7. destroyer

    destroyer I build jumps

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Hesperia
    It wouldn't be a big deal. If every full squish bike needed a spring the shops would stock them and sell them well too. You lost weight, you need to buy a new spring, you gained weight, you need a new spring. The great thing about springs is that the technology never changes.
     
  8. jasonmason

    jasonmason inebriate savant

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,363
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Geologist when I have to work, which is too often.
    Location:
    Sacramento
    The great thing for the consumer about springs is that the technology never changes.

    The terrible thing for the manufacturers about springs is that the technology never changes.
     
  9. Waldo

    Waldo Lebowski Urban Achiever

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,777
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Foothill Ranch... but my credit card lives at The
    I've never owned a bike with a coil shock, though I've had a coil fork, and dealt with moto suspension that was all coil spring based. I experienced the gains that were possible from custom tuning my moto suspension, so if I were a hucker or one to tackle lots of chunk, I might agree with the complaint. As an XC rider though, the suspension I've owned over my ~14 years of riding has been getting progressively better, particularly in balancing between the desire for of efficient climbing with fun descending.

    Probably my biggest complaint is the cost of shocks and forks. I was tempted to swap the fork that came stock on my current bike, but spending $600 to $1200 or more for a replacement fork is way out of my league, so I just hope this one lasts until I'm ready for a new bike.
     
  10. F.A.D.

    F.A.D. POWERED BY MUSUBIS

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,587
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Feeds me
    Location:
    Alta Loma
    Wouldn't you consider it to be value added if all you had to do was to connect a shock pump and to be able to adjust a few psi here and there to fine tune? Also, what about all of the different shock lengths and leverage ratios for all of the other makes and models?
     
  11. bing!

    bing! Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,220
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The constant development of air shocks is fueled by the desire of the market for even lighter complete bikes. We need to exterminate weight weenies, every last one of them to stop the abomination.
     
  12. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,654
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    48

    Because everyone is lining up again to ride 35-45 lbs. pigs again....like we did in the early 2000's.
     
  13. destroyer

    destroyer I build jumps

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Hesperia
    I like being able to tune my stuff with a shock pump. It's very easy. But at the end of the day all my coil shocks ride tremendously better than the air shocks I've had. I have a Fox air shock on my trail bike and a RC4 on my other bike. The RC4 is so much better once dialed in. I hate to see a market that chooses ease of use over performance. The weight difference isn't that big once a Ti spring is installed too.

    Except for Rock Shox pretty much every company is compatible. There isn't that many sizes (less than the different amount of tires most good shops carry). The cost of ti springs would plummet too if they bought in bulk and did it right.
     
  14. bing!

    bing! Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,220
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I so get that. When I got my DH bike, I went through 3 coils for the fork, Fox 40 Blue, then Purple, had to try the xsoft black just to see if it was any better. Stuck with the purple. In the rear, I went from 400, to 450, 350 to 300 and back to 350.

    If you account for testing 2 coils per outing, including playing with the compression and rebound for each coil, balancing the handling of front and rear with each coil change, and that you dont get to a bike park every week, it was a process that took a couple of months.

    However, my concern for not getting the linearity of coil, and the short service interval of air shocks and forks, has me sticking to coil. I owned a Boxxer World Cup. Before I put it on, I saw how people were rebuilding them multiple times a season, I sold it. Fox 40, once a season for preventative maintenance, loving it.

    A bit off tangent, I learned too, tuning a bike at a natural DH trail sucks balls. It's a confusing process. Better to tune the bike in a bike park for a benchmark, and make minor tweaks for natural DH.
     
  15. Schecky

    Schecky SoCalMTBubbs

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    North OC
    I've had both. ^^ Switching coils around can be a bit of a chore.
    I'm big and enjoy the ease of tuning that air provides.
    Current fork is air with a Ti negative spring. Best of both worlds.
     
  16. strobe

    strobe resident noob

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    For my XC type riding, i prefer easy adjustability. My coil fork (recon) is heavier and the inability to pump stiffer for a fireroad ride or softer for a singletrack ride in a matter of a minute makes me dislike it more. I also like the progressive ramp of air. I don't notice any added brake dive that others complain about air. Maybe because i ride a bit stiffer than most ppl.

    Disclaimer: i ride rigid more than 50% of the time, so, any squish is like a pillow for my spine. I also walk the sections that coil lovers are floating through. YMMV.
     
  17. destroyer

    destroyer I build jumps

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Hesperia
    Twice a year and it takes me 45 minutes each time. Not too bad.
     
  18. bing!

    bing! Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,220
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I just got a little butt hurt right there being that my dh ride is 41 pounds :(
     
  19. OCMoto

    OCMoto Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Nerd
    Location:
    Irvine
    Not to worry bing, I hear 41 is the new 30 :beer:
     
  20. mfoga

    mfoga Intense Whore

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2008
    Messages:
    8,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    They don't need that much service but when I can do it in 30 min why not keep the oils nice and fresh. I don't replace seals that often.
     

Share This Page

Help keep STR alive, please click the donation button below