Your pie chart is not entirely correct because the money being spent on the wars is not included in that budget. I'll keep the rest of my comments to my self. This chart shows an entirely different view and so do most of the others I have seen. None of them include the wars. If you want to see the actual budget numbers go here http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/browse.html The source of the info below is http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/
1. we're not copying canada's health care (red herring). 2. we're not copying france's health care (see #1). 3. with a public option, you're free to keep your insurance plan if you're so happy with it. 4. compared to most e.r.'s, the dmv is run like a borg warship (obscure star trek analogy). 5. i'm sorry i played on your lawn, mr. wilson...
Just a question. I pay child support and half my kids insurance. I cant afford my own now. So when I get hurt and need to use the system ( mind you I pay taxes and served my country) am I a leech? Some people need help from the state. Needing health care should be available if it is really needed.
^ you, sir, are a leech (and possibly a liar). danny, if you get hurt, i always have extra fat tires in my fridge that you are more than welcome to. :beer:
Goose, I take it from your post that you're a veteran. If so, thank you for your service, and please take advantage of the VA health system if your income is low enough. (If you weren't a vet, and your income was low enough, you'd qualify for medi-cal.) If you make enough money to afford health coverage, and choose to buy other things instead, then that's your choice. It's not like doctors wouldn't treat you if you were sick, it's just that you'd be stuck with some really big bills to pay in the end if you were unlucky. Seems fair to me.
Im ok. Just making a point. Yes I am a Veteran and have had 2 surgery's in 2008-2009. I still have had to pay around 3 grand in bills with the coverage I can afford. My kids insurance is more important to me than my own.
g.o.p. solution = ...................................................(insert cricket sounds). if you're not rich, you're outta luck (who would jesus insure). btw- do you know that in most states, insurance companies can deny women coverage for the pre-existing conditions of: domestic violence and/or pregnancy. that's compassionate. :insure this:
yo dirtvert ima gonna let u finish but rambo has the best med plan eva yes a bit of rehash of http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/pub/39448-poll-health-care-overhaul.html#post581837 but its stallone baby
thanks, adam. i'm self-medicating tonight also. i f-ed up my knee on a ride today. luckily, i have crappy blue cross insurance (they're trying to charge me $780 for the last time i went to the e.r. instead of my $30 co-pay because they "discontinued" their contract with the er that they told me to go to...). f the insurance companies. btw- sorry, i missed that you lost your pup. :beer me:
Here is, not a GOP plan, of which there are legion, but rather a rebuttal to the notion that having a plan and having a really good plan is what's important. It's by Adam Smith, from his work The Theory Of Moral Sentiments, in which he looks into why we care for each other: "The man of system, on the contrary, is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamoured with the supposed beauty of his own ideal plan of government, that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it. He goes on to establish it completely and in all its parts, without any regard either to the great interests, or to the strong prejudices which may oppose it. He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as the hand arranges the different pieces upon a chess-board. He does not consider that the pieces upon the chess-board have no other principle of motion besides that which the hand impresses upon them; but that, in the great chess-board of human society, every single piece has a principle of motion of its own, altogether different from that which the legislature might chuse to impress upon it. If those two principles coincide and act in the same direction, the game of human society will go on easily and harmoniously, and is very likely to be happy and successful. If they are opposite or different, the game will go on miserably, and the society must be at all times in the highest degree of disorder." Summary: Looking for a plan that will make everything perfect is a bad idea.
I got shot by an AK47, but Rambo had the best M60 ever, Where was he when I needed to be shot with style? BTW I was shot at, but never hit by an AK.
please. adam smith wrote about theoretical economic philosophies that excluded the plight of the "common man" (marx was a big fan) and are about as irrelevant to the real world--and our current woes--as they were over 2 centuries ago when he was alive. his laissez-faire capitalism beliefs are the mantra of the financial and insurance institutions that are raping us now... doing nothing to fix the problem is a really bad idea, which is probably where we're headed. i'm sure the insurance companies will be the big winners by what ever watered-down "reform" comes out of congress. you might as well be quoting hitler on foreign policy ideology...(sorry, that's probably the fat tire + meds talking). BREAKING NEWS: U.S. workers' health costs soaring, studies show By Susan Heavey Tue Sep 15, 3:27 pm ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. workers getting health insurance for their families through employers have seen their premiums more than double in the last decade and the trend toward higher health costs is expected to continue, according to two reports released on Tuesday. The Kaiser Family Foundation said the average premium for a company-provided family health insurance plan rose from $5,791 in 1999 to $13,375, a 131 percent jump. Separately, the Business Roundtable, an organization that represents large U.S. corporations, said per-employee costs will jump to $28,530 in 2019 from $10,743 currently if nothing is done. The findings come as Democratic lawmakers push their health reform plan aimed at containing rising costs and covering the millions of Americans currently without insurance. President Barack Obama has said the changes should build on the current U.S. model, in which most people under the age of 65 with health insurance get it through their employers. The Kaiser study said the portion of costs born by employees grew from $1,543 on average a decade ago to $3,515 this year. Employer saw their costs shoot up too, from $4,247 in contributions in 1999 to $9,860 in 2009 on average. "When health care costs continue to rise so much faster than overall inflation in a bad recession, workers and employers really feel the pain. That's why we are having a health reform debate," said Drew Altman, the foundation's president and chief executive. One Democratic proposal includes a public insurance plan that would rival the insurance industry. Some critics of a public plan say it could encourage companies to stop providing health benefits, while others say employers would still want to offer benefits to attract employees. The Business Roundtable says it wants to safeguard the coverage companies already provide while making the system more efficient. "The (roundtable) report ... paints a very grim picture of what happens if we fail to reform the healthcare system. The cost increases are so large that the employer based system that we have today will be at serious risk," Eastman Kodak Chairman and CEO Antonio Perez told reporters by telephone. About 60 percent of companies offer health-care coverage in the United States, insuring 159 million non-elderly people, according to Kaiser. Among those companies still offering health plans, 21 percent said they had reduced benefits or asked workers to pay additional costs while 15 percent said they had increased workers' share of the insurance premium. For 2010, companies said they also would shift more costs to workers, with 42 percent saying they would increase employees' premiums and 39 percent saying employees would pay more for doctor visits. Thirty-seven percent said workers would have to pay more for prescription medicines. The survey is based on information that Kaiser, along with the Health Research and Educational Trust, collected earlier this year from more than 2,000 public and private companies with at least three workers. Kaiser Vice President Gary Claxton concedes the survey misses one big issue -- the number of employees who lost their coverage because they were fired or their company went out of business. "It's not clear that we got the whole picture," he said in an interview. (Additional reporting by Donna Smith; editing by Dave Zimmerman and Tim Dobbyn) but p.j. o'rourke is brilliant. i'll have to check it out. :cheers:
Before you pull the ol' Hitler card on Smith, try looking up what the man really thought about stuff. People ascribe ideas to him that are really more Ayn Rand than Smith. The Scottish Enlightenment was an amazingly fertile place and time, and most of the rights we take for granted were shaped by the crowd Smith ran with. For a very readable take on Smith, try PJ O'Rourke's funny-ish commentary. I bet it's actually very funny when you're on meds.
I'd actually recommend the cliff notes, or O'Rourke's commentary over the original. Moral Sentiments is ~1000 pages of 1750's era philosophy professor. Thank you and good night. Still, it'll look impressive on the coffee table.
(a) Smith's words bring me to what conclusion? F the Governmess! Anarchism! I don't want a vanguard or ruling class over self sovereignty. I don't want to be a pawn (but I am). My "representative" in Washington doesn't represent me, I do. Capitol Hill is a continuation of the kings, queens, serfs, suzerains, squires etc. that America tried to escape from. We are pawns again, and we are getting screwed by the governement and the private interests (money) that ultimately calls the shots. I say, "Don't tread on me!" "The Libertarian premise is that individuals (and only individuals) possess equal and reciprocal rights, and must consent to be ruled by a government. However, if an individual condemns, as illegitimate, all governments that rule without consent - then all governments, past and present, have been illegitimate." The consent theory of government is "the universal demolisher of all governments, but not the builder of any." (Josiah Tucker)
I currently have excellent health insurance. The yearly cost of $15,368 is paid by my employer. I have a $10 copay for doctor visits, $50 copay for emergency room visits, and no deductible. I have received excellent care from my primary, specialists, and hospitals (3 times from mountain biking accidents). I believe that if Obamacare is passed with a public option, most companies will opt to change to the public option with the argument that that is what we voted for. I don't believe quality of service will be anywhere near what I have now. I also believe that as more people are added to the system who don't pay into it, the cost to those who do pay will grow either through fees or higher taxes. Also in the long run as the government holds down the pay of their defacto health care employees, fewer and less qualified people will enter the medical profession causing lower quality service and less availability. Thats why I am against Obamacare.
50 years ago, everybody paid for their own health care. Today, people seem to think they are entitled to health care. People think that somebody else should pay for their care. Whatever happened to looking ahead and paying for yourself? What next, should we be entitled to $1M life insurance policy? How about to a BMW? I reject socialism. Every experiment the world has seen with socialism ends up in the same types of abuses. It is called the "tragedy of the commons"... each person thinks only of themselves and abuses the resources for their own person benefit. This creates rationing and dare I say it... "death panels." Meanwhile, the people in charge have a totally different set of rules applied to them. See, you can all act altruistic on the surface... but when push comes to shove, people very capitalistically think only of themselves, even those who push socialism as the best thing since sliced bread. Moreover, I find very amusing that all this thread people's opinion of whether health care should be socialized is directly related to a good or bad experience that the person has had recently with medical care. This is not exactly principled reasoning. Why does anybody think that going down this road will be any different from what history teaches are the consequences of socialism?
Ahhh, yes. The nightmare that is socialism. Let's explore the many dangers and tragedies that come with being a socialist nation... http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-april-21-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--1 http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-22-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--2 OH NOEZ!!!111!11!111!! :lol:
