4 bar vs DW vs VPP etc

[Rockinthecasbah]

does it really matter in a gravty bike i have ridden all and im not qute sure if t matters i thnk shock tuning may be more important

[BrewMaster]

For downhill with little pedaling, I would say no, it doesn't matter. IMO, inefficient suspension designs tend to become a problem when you are climbing.

[DISCO]

Yes but for climbing the best designs are the maverick Mono-Link or any other bike that carries the BB and axle on the same member.(Haro, GT)

[freekengo]

Even though the shock tuning is one of the most important part of the suspension, the axle path and the effect of the braking force on the swing arm will have a influence on the "feel". For example, when I made the move from a Santa Cruz Bullit to a VP free, there was a drastic difference in feel over the terrain between the two bikes. On the Bullit, I can feel each movement of the effect of torque on the suspensio arm( pedaling, braking, and terrain). On the VPFree, the suspensio didn't felt as if it were unaffected by the above input. It was more or less affected by the weight input from the rider. As you would know though that "feel" is a very personal reaction. I felt that I gave both frames a fair and equal setting using my shock dyno at the shop taking into account the leverage ratio's of both frames. They were both set at the exact same adjusted compression(high & low speed), rebound(high & low speed), and spring rates. The VPP bikes when set up correctly felt really smooth and compliant through the really chunky stuff, where the single pivot felt really "interactive". I think that an Horst link bike fits somewhere in the middle ground between the two "feel" wise. I don't have enough experience with DW or Maestro to make a determination, but it looks very similar to the VPP in actuation. Just my take on it. What are you looking for Ricky?

[chongoblanco]

Originally Posted by Rockinthecasbah

does it really matter in a gravty bike i have ridden all and im not qute sure if t matters i thnk shock tuning may be more important

IT matters to a certain degree like the 303 rips on a downhill but pedals like rubbish.

All dh runs have flat or some pedal sections, Vpp is just a variation of the DW link and they both work really well. I dont feel the rear suspension bob on my giant when I pedal but its movin.

My transiton has a four type link which is setup just like an Xcl, which is just like specialized, it pedals great.

Some single pivots work great too like Foes, rockymountain, Bionicon, the yeti asx, etc. my nest bike is going to be single pivot.

I think it boils down to preference and setup once you decide on a frame. Shock setup is key but you will really notice when climbing any bike with lockout won't climb well with the shock unlocked, just like it wont descend well with it locked out.

Just my humble opinoin.

[Rockinthecasbah]

does the travel arc of a single pivot type type bike vpp.4bar etc and the stretching\shorting of the wheelbase effect handng alot vs dw type rear ends where the wheel travels almost straght up and down

[freekengo]

Originally Posted by Rockinthecasbah

does the travel arc of a single pivot type type bike vpp.4bar etc and the stretching\shorting of the wheelbase effect handng alot vs dw type rear ends where the wheel travels almost straght up and down

The only time you'll really notice it would be on the more square edged hits, and pedaling over terrain features(pedal kick back).

[chongoblanco]

Originally Posted by Rockinthecasbah

does the travel arc of a single pivot type type bike vpp.4bar etc and the stretching\shorting of the wheelbase effect handng alot vs dw type rear ends where the wheel travels almost straght up and down

yes depending on the design of the single pivot. Single pivot bikes are more likely to be affected by brakejack depending on the design.

Alot of the new single pivot suspension designs dont have this problem as much. You have to look at how the single pivot bikes are setup. like swd not is not a good design if you ask me. The small pivot point were the rear of the frame attaches is joined only by the rear shock eye. this will make the rear flex alot and give bad brake jack.

[CalEpic]

For downhill, I think a single pivot with a floating rear brake would be tough to beat. Climbing, who really cares on a 40 lb bike. They all suck. True Horst Link is probably the best for compliance and being able to feel what the suspension is doing, VPP feels kind of disconnected to me. DW/Maestro?

C

[stinkyrider]

Dude, you're not thinking of dropping the DW-link for a new bike, are you?

I'm gonna pull a Dino Brown here.
http://dw-link.com/reasons.html

I want to apologize in advance for the super-noob laymens explantion/review here and also spelling & gramatical errors and overall general shitty writing. Maybe this is not the information you are looking for but I like to read my own writing so I guess I am going to post anyway.

I feel DW/Maestro is far superior.
As someone who has a Maestro bike, single pivot, and a 4 bar, everything about the maestro/DW is hands down the superior performer for both climbing and descending. I love it so much that I have a second maestro bike on order.

The single pivot sucks for pedaling (ahhh! tiny increments of energy are being stolen from me!) but feels good on the descents since the small bump compliance is excellent. The only drawback on descending that is braking forcing interacting with the suspension. I suppose this can be solved with a floating rear caliper. I suppose as well the inefficient pedaling can be solved with a platform type shock but then you lose your small bump compliance, I guess you are screwed unless it's a dedicated gravity bike. It will suck pedaling through a long flat section though.

The Four bar (actually I ride Faux bar but close enough) pedals great, feels great for taking off and landing jumps but drawback is the same as the single pivot...brake jack. Once again, this issue can be easily solved withe floating rear caliper.

As for the Maestro/DW, it has superior traction on the uphills and downhills. Even on the 8.8" Glory DH, you can hammer the pedals and there was no noticable pedal bob. Pedaled the loop on a Glory during that Giant demo last week and it was way easier than I thought it would be. As for descending on both the Glory and the Reign, the rear traction is unreal. The rear end stays completely glued to the ground. The rear suspension remains fully active even if you lock up the rear wheel. Gotta love the almost linear axle path. The only forseeable downside to the DW-Link is that Ironhorse prefers to sell walmart bikes.

Not sure about VPP since I have limited saddle time on one. What I can tell you is that I didn't really like the S shape movement of the rear axle. The axle moving away and towards felt bizarre. Another point, maybe it's because the rear shock wasn't set up for me, but I felt the rear end squat a lot when hammering the pedals. The bike felt like it squat like pedal bob but there was no noticible effect on pedaling efficiency and energy transfer from the cranks to the rear wheel. I would still choose VPP over single pivot and 4-bar though.

[Dino Brown]

Ricky- Each and every suspension design (excluding the DW LINK) has its strengths and its weaknesses.

You must ask yourself what YOUR primary needs will be: Plush ride, pedaling efficiency, handling, railing corners, whether chain growth is a concern, differences in wheel path (i.e. a Specialized Big Hit will feel much different than an Intense M6- in many ways) etc. etc. etc.

While I am no suspension expert, I have owned a single pivot, a fsr, a vpp and a dw link bike.
WITHOUT A DOUBT, I am happiest on a DW LINK bike. While it may not be as "PLUSH" as some single pivots, I do believe the DW LINK to be the most complete linkage in the world. Pedals EXTREMELY well... anti-squat... does not require propedal.... lack of brake jack... lack of pedal feedback... great on small bumps... exceptional traction... SUPER stiff rear end.... and the fact the bike will track straighter than other designs when things get bumpy!

I like my bikes to be quick, nimble and responsive.
Others would rather have their bikes "SOAK-UP" the terrain. It all comes down to personal preference.

Bottomline: You must purchase a bike that best suits YOUR needs... as well as YOUR riding style!
If it were up to me, I would keep the 7 Point!

P.S.- Stinkyrider is my Homeboy!

[Rockinthecasbah]

im thinkng along the lines of my big moutain and dh race bike for next season and also kind of playing with some designs for a custom run of big DH bikes and possbly 4x frames since my gpa who fabrcated for 40+ years is home(semi retred ) and needs somethng to do

[Nagaredama]

Originally Posted by stinkyrider

The Four bar (actually I ride Faux bar but close enough) pedals great, feels great for taking off and landing jumps but drawback is the same as the single pivot...brake jack. Once again, this issue can be easily solved withe floating rear caliper.

A Horst link is very different than a Faux bar bike. The later is simply a single pivot where the shock is actuated by a rocker.

The Horst link bike can have infinite number of virtual pivot points (not to be confused with the trademarked name for VPP) where the Faux is limited to where the chainstay bolts to the frame.

On to other ramblings

Every bike (but those concentric pivots around the BB shell) have some level of chain growth and no wheel path is perfectly vertical. Bike with more rear ward paths will have more chain growth than those with less.

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by Dino Brown

While I am no suspension expert, I have owned a single pivot, a fsr, a vpp and a dw link bike.
WITHOUT A DOUBT, I am happiest on a DW LINK bike.

So Dino...How much time have you spent on your VPP bike?

Speaking of, did you ever get your DW-link bike to work properly? I know you've been struggling getting it to work right. Perhaps DW isn't really best suited for you?

Back to the topic...it looks like most people have read a lot about the theories of how various suspension designs perform, but I doubt many have truly felt these characteristics for themselves without "prompting" from prior "knowledge" from reading about them.

[Dino Brown]

Lee- You are too funny!

I will admit: For many, the bike shopping process begins and ends with what they read or what their friends tell them.

In my case, my bike search lasted sooo long (countless demos, parking lot tests and bike swaps) that my closest friends all but gave up on me! One day, I swallowed my pride and demo'd a brand/linkage that was not the coolest, was not the most heavily advertised and was not on ANYONE'S wish list. After (2) 20 minute test sessions, I was sold. The ONE YEAR search had ended!

If you are looking for a bike: Do some research. Borrow/Demo/Swap/Test every bike you can get your hands on. If you are honest with yourself, the bike will choose you....

[freekengo]

Originally Posted by Dino Brown

If you are looking for a bike: Do some research. Borrow/Demo/Swap/Test every bike you can get your hands on. If you are honest with yourself, the bike will find you....

Or you can be like me and suffer the classic "paralysis by analysis"......... Sux!

[thephat]

I think geometry and fit are as important as linkage.

I had an Ellsworth Dare for about a year. (Horst link)
I had an Iron Horse Sunday for about a year. (DW link)
I have been on an Intense M6 (VPP) for the last 6 weeks or so.
I also have real time on a Turner DHR, and Specialized Demo 8.

My feeling is that the most important differences between these bikes were in the geometry.

The DW link is very consistent, it pedals well, and it abosrbs bumps well in all conditions.

The Horst is close to DW. The Ellsworth ICT version is not quite as compliant over mid range bumps, and is not as controled feeling. The Specialized version is plusher, but feels like it is moving too easily at times.

VPP is the plushest feeling when off the brakes. I am not into the pedal kickback when you hit a square edged bumps, but I mostly notice it on techy climbs, so it's not an issue on the DH rig. The VPP has an interesting quality where it seems to want to spring out of corners. I think some high single pivots do this too.

It seems many pros kill it on a single high pivot with a linkage linkage acuated shock. The linkage alows for the manipulation of the progression rate, and takes side loaf off the shock. Many also do well on a lower single pivot.

[un-kola]

Originally Posted by thephat

VPP is the plushest feeling when off the brakes. I am not into the pedal kickback when you hit a square edged bumps, but I mostly notice it on techy climbs, so it's not an issue on the DH rig. The VPP has an interesting quality where it seems to want to spring out of corners. I think some high single pivots do this too.

I thought it was just me,but I feel the same way.I ride a an Intense 5.5 and when I come out of a turn the bike feels like it wants to "spring out of corner" and start to sprint.I also notice the kickback on square edge bumps but I just try to roll over them or pick my line around them if possible.- Lloyd

[Sprockethead]

Originally Posted by Dino Brown

The ONE YEAR search had ended!

Are you serious? It was more like 5 years and not until your Trek Y bike broke.