Thoughts on Coil Shock

[92se-r]

So I finally got a little ride today with the Vanilla w/ Propedal 7.875x2.25 with 500# spring on my Reign. Interesting. Was it more plush? Maybe a tad? Does it climb worse than my RP3? Yes, but it was not due to bobbing.

Most calculators I used, suggested I use a 400 or 450# spring for my weight at 145 lbs. This Vanilla came with a 500# spring. However, as soon as I sat down on the thing, my first thought was that this thing is way too soft. On an actual ride though, it didn't seem too soft and actually felt alright. Climbing performance was affected because I kept lifting the front end. I think it's sagging too much or the extra sag from using a 2.25" stroke vs 2" stroke is lowering the bottom bracket height and causing me to wheelie a bit. The shock climbed surprisingly well in terms of bob though, probably due to the Maestro suspension.

I'm not too sure on if it is more plush or not. TK, was it very apparent how plush the Vanilla was compared to an air shock, or was it just a tad bit more plush?

Anyone else? Any thoughts? I've heard Fox has a huge tolerance on their springs. Maybe that's why this 500# is not feeling stiff to me at all?

[Rockinthecasbah]

if the overll length of the shock is 1/4" shorter then you changed your geo a lil or alot depending on the linkage and thats why your pulling the front up, you slackend the HA. If you have travel adjust you may want to lower the front down a lil. A little bit of difference in a rear shock can make a huge difference because it is amplified by the linkage

[bighit8]

For me air shocks ( not forks ,to clarify) are harsh in the travel but climb better. Springs just seem to soak up the hits smoother and with less feed back. Air always seems to have a kick back ( rebound to fast)stiff feel. Thats my opinion.

[92se-r]

Eye to eye is the same at 7.875. Only the stroke length is 2.25 now instead of 2" before, giving me 6.75" of travel versus 6" originally.

[Rockinthecasbah]

hmm that should have made your geo go the other way and less prone to front wheel liftoffs, you defintlty need to check your sag, even if its the right spring you need to preload the coil for your weight

[92se-r]

Well, I was figuring 30% of 2.25" is more than 30% of 2". So should I sag it 30% of 2", even though I have 2.25" of stroke now? Would that affect small bump compliance?

[Uncle Rico]

I ran a DHX Air on my Turner for a few months and never liked it. It just never felt good.
Put a DHX Coil on there, night and day. The bike feels better in every way.

[DISCO]

Just pre-load it to your pleasure and make sure the bike can handle the extra stroke without bottoming out. The extra weight and lack of platform should actually inhibit climbing but whatever makes you happy. The common thought is that at five inches or less air is the way to go for the adjust ability and lack of strain on components due to the "hammock effect". By going coil there is not much adjustment other than buying a new spring or altering viscosity within your damper. Since there are lots of variations in leverage ratios, and your has been altered other than intended the answer is simple.

It it ain't broke, you're not trying. Still I must ask since our local trails lack any kind of shuttle what possible benefit do you expect by going backwards in tech?

[92se-r]

Are you replying to my post or someone elses? Lack of platform? Reread my post. PROPEDAL. Also, the Maestro suspension doesn't need a platform IMO, just like the DW-Link. I just finished a Noble ride today which is local to me, AND a shuttle ride. It also climbed fine today with some more preload. I was just sagging too much yesterday, causing the front end to lift. Again, like I said before, I do not need a platform because the coil does not bob on this bike.

This is not a 5" travel bike. This is a 6" travel bike that is now a 6.75" travel bike.

The answer is simple what? I have no idea what you are referring to. Seriously, I have no idea what you are trying to say in your post. Care to explain?

Originally Posted by DISCO

Just pre-load it to your pleasure and make sure the bike can handle the extra stroke without bottoming out. The extra weight and lack of platform should actually inhibit climbing but whatever makes you happy. The common thought is that at five inches or less air is the way to go for the adjust ability and lack of strain on components due to the "hammock effect". By going coil there is not much adjustment other than buying a new spring or altering viscosity within your damper. Since there are lots of variations in leverage ratios, and your has been altered other than intended the answer is simple.

It it ain't broke, you're not trying. Still I must ask since our local trails lack any kind of shuttle what possible benefit do you expect by going backwards in tech?

[Rockinthecasbah]

I think disco was refering to the people who try to push the suspension bigger on Am bikes while actually having no use for it. The air suspension is a newer design and hasnt been out for a billion years like coil over suspension but like you i prefer the feel of a properly tuned coil shock also my coil on my 7 point has compression, and rebound so what else would air offer other then a weight savings. basically you just needed to get your sag figured out and make sure your tire isnt going to hit your seat tube, which I beleive you did.

[tkblazer]

one of the problems with the reign is your weight is pretty far back over the rear tire. combine that with a short cockpit and slack geometry and the front end tends to wander on climbs. i ended up slamming the saddle forward all the way on the rails and switching from a 50mm stem to a 70mm stem for xc/am type of rides. the longer stroke of the shock does drop the bb and slacken both the HA and STA. in regards to plushness, with the stock shock you would have to push down pretty hard on the saddle to compress the rear shock. with the coil you can push it down with one hand. small bump sensitivity and technical climbs the coil was way better since it sucks up and absorbs the rocks better due to the increased traction. the air shock by far climbs better, maestro, dw, vpp do not need a platform to climb well but it still makes a difference having a platform.

[92se-r]

Yeah, i ended up adding some preload to the spring and that seemed to fix my front end from wandering around. It does seem a bit more plush now compared to the RP3. It matches the 36 I have up front a lot better. I didn't notice any bobbing or anything during climbs, but it may be because this is a ProPedal Vanilla. If I remember correctly, your Vanilla was pre-ProPedal right TK?

[tkblazer]

yup, non-propedal vanilla... pedal bob was not much of an issue on climbs when seated..

[DISCO]

I ride a vanilla, and though it says "Pro-Pedal" on it there is no way to adjust the platform. I have put many hours on the trail on both a Giant trance and SC nomad and though the minimize pedal feed back it is impossible to eliminate. I am glad to hear you adjusted the pre-load on the coil and found your sweet spot, not being a fan of Fox air shox I understand why the coil would seem advantageous. I ride the same model on my Kona but have noticed little difference in bob with the alleged platform damping, then again I have not fiddled with the set-up since the first ride.

Happy Trails.

[Jman]

I have an old Vanilla on the Bullit frame I own and I never had a huge problem with bob while climbing. I had it set-up for AM before that was even a term and it actually rode pretty well. I'm looking forward to getting the DHX coil on my new Bottlerocket and playing with it a bit!

I'm curious, how much does your Giant weight?

[92se-r]

My Reign is not built to be light. I got this stupid heavy Sun Ringle SUV wheel up front. Heavy FireAM Pro tires with heavy tubes. It's 34-35 lbs right now. It was 34 with the RP3. Still climbs fairly well though for what it is.

[tkblazer]

Originally Posted by 92se-r

My Reign is not built to be light. I got this stupid heavy Sun Ringle SUV wheel up front. Heavy FireAM Pro tires with heavy tubes. It's 34-35 lbs right now. It was 34 with the RP3. Still climbs fairly well though for what it is.

thats not bad, mine was 36 lb with xc tires (BB front, ignitor rear)

[Jman]

That really isn't bad for a 6 inch + travel bike. The Bottlerocket at 5.5" is going to be close to 40lbs. I doubt I'll be able to climb on it but I didn't really buy it for that. That Giant sounds like a pretty fun bike!

[tkblazer]

yea but the bottlerocket wasn't really intended as a AM bike, but more of a short travel freeride/SS bike... the covert would be a more comparable bike to the reign

[92se-r]

Yeah, I was only so so on this frame when I first built it up. I originally transferred all my parts over from my 31 lb Iron Horse Hollowpoint to build it up. It had a Marz. All Mountain SL 130mm fork. It felt ok, but I wasn't too impressed for it having 6" of travel, coming from a 4.5" travel bike. I then upgraded to a Pike, which I loved. The bike became a lot better, geometry fit better, through axle was awesome. Then I started noticing flaws in the rear, with the high volume canister on the RP3. With the 3:1 leverage ratio, it would blow through almost all the travel on a curb and just wallow around in the midrange with no support. I did some more research and changed the high volume canister over to a small canister. Much better. Then I got upgradeitis again and went to a Fox 36, and noticed again how much the rear was lacking. It was nowhere near as plush as the 36. And, on big drops, I was bottoming out the RP3. If I pumped the air up too much, small bump compliance would go to crap. Switched over to the Vanilla and got the preload set right, and I guess the rest is history.