4x Bikes...

[92se-r]

Ok you guys have me interested. Give me some details on 4X. What does it stand for and got any videos of a race?

[destroyer]

I'm hoping to ride friday, so I can see the changes for myself.

Here are some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRjeagrDLP8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV21mIryfPQ

Fontana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHolUsuZ0Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wmmv67lEE

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by 92se-r

Ok you guys have me interested. Give me some details on 4X. What does it stand for and got any videos of a race?

Where do you live can you join us during the week sometime we go out there pretty regular and you can try my 4x bike on it. It's so much fun!!

Link to 4X race pics:
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u94/dirthippie/4X%20race%201-12-08/

I think my friend took video I'll check.

[BobBurnes]

Hey, 92!

4X is 4 riders, across from each other on a gate, racing on a mostly down hill course with tight berms and jumps incorporated into the track.

4X is also called mountain cross or biker cross.

I don't know if anybody got any video of 1/12's 4X race, but the Yeti site has some awesome examples.

check it out on www.yeticycles.com

Look up the video vault and hit just about any of the links there.

As for the 4X bike:

The best 4X frames have a head angle of at least 69 degrees to get the most out of a 100-110 mm fork. Chainstays no longer than 16.2" to give the rider that "snappy" bmx feeling through the turns and help those all important manuals.

Here's my frame of choice (nearly done for the race on the 26th!) C'mon e.thirteen!





Parts and pieces are riders preference, but the general rules are:

stem: 50mm
bar: 1.5 to 2" rise
forks: 100-110mm travel
tires: single-ply 2.0-2.3

DS 4X bikes are fine (They do take a bit more effort than the hard tail to pedal regardless of shock set up...trust me), but I've seen HT bikes rock out on the biggest tracks Europe and the UK just as well as the DS'.

As far as what they're made from-I've seen 4X bikes in Ti, steel, and aluminum. To each their own, but I prefer steel.

[destroyer]

4x this friday everyone is welcome:

Fontana Southridge 4x and fun

[2wheel_lee]

Bob, I can't qute read the sticker on the down tube. Who makes that frame? That's a beautiful bike! But so is your Yeti.

Although my beloved Azonic has been one of my favorite bikes for about 8 years, the geometry isn't that great for 4X (or DH for that matter ). I need to get something with shorter chainstays which would allow me to run a shorter fork, which would allow me to have a lower bottom bracket. By the way, that should be a hint to many that bike setup plays a huge roll in how it handles.

[BobBurnes]

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

Bob, I can't qute read the sticker on the down tube. Who makes that frame? That's a beautiful bike! But so is your Yeti.

Although my beloved Azonic has been one of my favorite bikes for about 8 years, the geometry isn't that great for 4X (or DH for that matter ). I need to get something with shorter chainstays which would allow me to run a shorter fork, which would allow me to have a lower bottom bracket. By the way, that should be a hint to many that bike setup plays a huge roll in how it handles.

Hey, Lee!


That Azonic of yours is pure classic! They've come along way since then in racing technology (frame angles, bottom bracket location, length, ect), but your racing on Saturday was proof the rider still plays a major part in this! (Here's to a good gate next time!)

The bike in the picture is a 2008 Dialled Bikes Holeshot.
New from the UK, it's made from British Reynolds 520 steel with a 22.35" top tube on the large frame (pictured) and 21" for the short.

The Holeshot has a 13" seat tube, 16.2 chainstays, and a 69 degree head angle. The angles are perfect for dual slalom, 4X, dirt jumpers, BMX, and urban rippers, but it's main purpose is racing.

The Holeshot made it's debut in 2006 with podiums in every category, to include Pro. In 2007, the Dialled Holeshot was the most seen frame in the European and UK national 4X races and in the locals and, like 2006, was ever present on the podiums.

It'll soon be available in the US and I'll be more than happy to let you shred the course on it on the 26th! If you're interested in owning one, let me know. I am your Dialled Bikes connection for the US.

What time are you planning on getting to the race on the 26th, Lee?

[2wheel_lee]

Did you write all of that? It looks like it came out of a brochure!

How tall are you? I'd have guessed that the smaller frame would be a better fit. Do you have a link to their website?
How much do you think the completed bike will weigh?

Even if they do make a functioning gate latch mechanism, that gate is still junk. However, if they do make something work, I have a feeling that the racing would be much different. I don't know which one of us would be faster, but I'd bet that we'd both run away from the other two guys.

I'm not sure what time I'd show up if I decide to race.

[BobBurnes]

Yeah, I wrote it.

I love the technology and thought that goes into race inspired bicycles. Once I fell in love with racing 4X and dual slalom, I wanted to know the why's and how's of everything, so, I went out and learned.

I'm 72" tall and my and legs are long. Short frames are very tight to me and my knees, with pads on, will hit my thumbs when I sprint. I only had to do that once to figure out a longer top tube is what I needed.

I think you're an inch, if that, shorter than me. If that's true, than you're right on the line between the short and long frame. Give mine a shot and see how it feels.

The bike, as soon as I get my new gear from Hayes, Sun, and Manitou, will weigh in at an approximate 27 lbs. Mostly do to the new MRD Minute Forks Manitou was kind enough to support me with this season. They're only about 3lbs, a full 1.9 pounds lighter than the fork you see me running currently.

I'll get the exact weight once she's 100%.

The direct link to the web site is:

www.dialledbikes.com

or

www.dialledbikesusa.com

Hit contact, ask for Mike (That's the magic man), and he'll get you set up!

Yeah, I spoked with Donny about the gate. He's working the issue and there were plently of people there too who said they've got the gear, know-how, and time. I hope it all comes together on the 26th.

You had some pretty sick gate sprints for a rubberband start. I'd love to see what you could rip on a proper start gate!

I did my best to get around you, but you pressed on into that berm and by the time I made my move to cut the other two off, you were already sprinting over that first jump!

I'd really encourage you to keep racing, Lee! It was a blast racing against you and I'd hate for it to be a one time thing, bro.

[Jman]

Lee, I think the rear wheel has two issues, the first is what you talked about in the QR and having it tightened really tight. The second is that I think the wheel needs to be trued up a bit as I've been beating that rim up for a good two years and have only had it looked at once. I'm actually going to go ride it a bit when I'm done here and I'm gonna see if I can pin point whats up with it.

Destroyer,
Thanks for the links those bike pics are awesome. That 4x course in the Vigo video was rough I'll be that wasn't the fastest course, it almost looked DHish to me.

I would love to race the 4x but the jumps are what gets me, I just don't jump well. I'm practicing it a bit but there is a fear factor that is tough to get over. I was really impressed with Destroyer and the other guys at Fontana last month, they're just fearless and launch their bikes with wild abandon. The other skill that I'm not great at is the whole manual thingy. I can do it to clear quick obstacles on the my everyday rides but the long manuals over the rollers like at Fontana....no way aint gonna happen. More practice and skill is what I need. With that in mind whats the beginner class like in 4x at Fontana? I'm gonna spend a bit more time on the Chameleon and maybe the last race of the series I might try to do one run if for no other reason than to say I've done it....once!

[2wheel_lee]

Jman, you already have yourself psyched out - in a bad way it seems. Although it's good to have high expections, they don't need to be as high as where you're shooting.

Jumping - Unless you're racing in the expert class, there's no need to know how to jump (at least on the Fontana course). Yes, there are little things to jump, but don't worry, you don't need to jump any doubles or triples. You can roll over everything...or manual it if you want to go faster. Again, jumping is not a necessity. You may be surprised, but there are many very fast BMX racers who don't know how to jump, either.

Manualling - This you'll need to work on. But as I mentioned in this or another thread, your bike setup can make this easier (or more difficult). The key is to practice and work with someone who can watch and guide you. Make sure you see the thread somewhere else here from Zstyle. Don't worry, you don't need to manual over all of those triples - it'll never happen for me, either.

The beginner class is the logical place to start. Although I didn't see the beginner races, I did see some of the guys practicing. And many of them were 30-40+ year olds with minimal experience. They struggled through stuff much like I suspect you may. BTW, I didn't start in the beginner class because I'm not beginner when it comes to this skillset (just old and out of shape), which is why I started out in sport. Most others in the same boat would also likely start out in sport, so don't worry.

Although she lacks confidence, Sharky should also be out there racing in a beginners class as well. During practice, I saw her go over the jumps and turns better than all of the beginner women I saw as well as some of the beginner men (and a lot of the beginner boys).

The best way to learn is to get out there and race. Racing tends to bring the best abilities out of people, and you can really find out where your strong and weak points are. You can get an idea by doing practice races against people of similar levels, but it's just not the same.

[Sharky]

That's really cool of you to say. I have so much fun on that track and want to keep pushing myself. Was talking to Dirttorpeedo today he said you need atleast 3 gears to race so rather than switch the ratio of the SS should just maybe go ahead and add some gears just in case I feel ready? I'm not sure but because they had so few women didn't they throw a few beg. in with the pro's run. Yikes hope they wouldn't do that my first race!

[Nagaredama]

Excellent place to practice is a BMX track. Depending on where you live you could practice almost every night of the week. I've been to Simi and Bellflower. Both tracks were very accommodating to us big wheels folks.

[2wheel_lee]

Sharky,
From what I've read, the 4X rules used to require at least three functioning gears. I believe that is no longer the case, and singlespeeds are allowed (there were several singlespeeds out there on Saturday).

I'm not sure what happened with the women's classes, but if there were more participants, then riders could have been in the correct classes. Also, as more beginner classes develop, then more people would feel comfortable race, and the beginner classes can grow. So it's up to you to make it happen!

[Jman]

Well I sort of took your advice even before you typed it Lee. I just got back in from about 45 minutes of just playing, I was out there bunny hopping (I felt like 10 yr old!! It was awesome). I realized while I was out there that I'm not 'afraid' of jumping I think its just the site of the doubles that get me. I mean today I was out there 'jumping/dropping' off of a 8 foot drop (I never landed on flat but I was working on popping off the lip, ropping and rolling out of it). I was having a blast. That sprinting is no easy task either!!!!

Now I'm beat though after an 18 mile road ride, a 4.4 mile run and 45 minutes of playing my legs are toast. Not bad for my only day off of the week. I think a trip to Southridge to 'practice' may be in order next week. We'll have to see how my schedule works out.

Thanks for all the great advice. Nice and encouraging.

[tkblazer]

damn lee, leading the pack!






i'm guessing that is bob going for the inside line

[2wheel_lee]

Yup...that's Bob going for the kill and a little steak...I mean T-bone. I mean...Just kidding!

[BobBurnes]

Shhhh...that's my secret line.

Hey-it worked 3 out of 3 times! Now if only I could gate, Lee....

[DownhillWebKook]

I got to check out Lee firsthand last weekend. He's a pinner and a good guy. He also seems to be a wellspring of good information about bikes. So, listen and learn. Adding my 2 cents, I would have to agree about the desire for short chainstays. You also want something that is light, but stout. 4x is gnarly and puts a good beatdown on both you and your bike.

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

A Santa Cruz Chameleon like this one would make a great 4X bike with a few changes, such as a chain retention system (and removing the front rings), a 50 mm stem, and some different tires. There's some fine tuning that could be done after that, such as to the fork. Really, I think this is a great frame for 4X. That's what I would use, if I had one.

In regards to fork height, there are other variables than just travel, specifically chainstay length. Some of the DJ bikes out there have very short chainstays, which make it very easy to manual the front wheel. My Azonic has longer chainstays on it, which make it difficult to manual (or speed jump) with my Pike 454 set at 110 mm. However, if I set the fork at 140, it lifts the front up a bit, shifting my weight on the bike rearward which makes it much easier to manual. On Saturday, I originally had my fork set at 110, and I had a hard time getting the front of the first set of doubles, but after changing it to 140, it was much easier (except for the second moto where my timing was off, but no fork or bike would have made a difference).

In the suspension vs. hardtail debate, it depends on the course...and even still, the HT will have advantages in some places and the HT will have advantages in others. Although I really don't have a preference, I currently have a HT.