San Diego Saturday morning??

[el_d00der1n0]

Originally Posted by PacMan

There are also many ways back up to the Mesa, not just the switchbacks. It's super easy to figure it all out. Just do a little legwork.

i've found two ways up (besides turning around and going back up the tunnel), but they weren't ridable. the switchback looks like the only makable section.

i think the old tunnels has gotten better with more traffic. the trail is harder packed and not as loose as it used to be. all anyone has to do is follow the myriad of bike treads...

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

i've found two ways up (besides turning around and going back up the tunnel), but they weren't ridable. the switchback looks like the only makable section.

i think the old tunnels has gotten better with more traffic. the trail is harder packed and not as loose as it used to be. all anyone has to do is follow the myriad of bike treads...

Ya, but it is also a lot wider than it used to be. The narrowness of the "new" Tunnel is what makes it so fun.

And you're right, since there's so many tracks for people to follow, we don't need to post directions. I've got no problem helping people out through personally showing or PM'ing, I just hesitate to do it publicly. I saw lot's of equestrian tracks/poop all throughout the area yesterday--where I had never seen any before.

[evdog]

I would second pacman's comments.

There was a huge steaming pile of horse dookie right at the bottom of the new tunnel the other day. They did not necessarily find it from directions posted on STR, but there are equestrians and others who read these boards so it is not beyond possibility.

And it looks like a lot of people are cutting corners and/or breaking off branches to make it easier for them to ride through. Its only a matter of time before people start sawing off trunks in places where its a tighter squeeze.

Please be considerate. And if you can't ride down steeper sections without skidding, please learn how to ride your bike before you go in and shred trails.

As for posting directions, until trails show up on an official map PLEASE DON"T POST DIRECTIONS. As far as I am aware these trails are neither official nor legal yet. And if I look back to recent conversations on the multi-use coalition message board some of the other users will be looking to block mtb's from these trails. There is no reason why people cannot be left to find these trails on their own. Its not that hard, but posting directions simply invites the lazy and/or inexperienced.

[b5driver]

Originally Posted by PacMan

I saw lot's of equestrian tracks/poop all throughout the area yesterday--where I had never seen any before.

Not to mention the mini-bikes (50 cc's or whatever) that I ran into up on the mesa.

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by evdog

There is no reason why people cannot be left to find these trails on their own. Its not that hard.

[el_d00der1n0]

ok then. what is mountain bike bill's site for? it shows people how to get to fun trails. are they just being lazy? i'm not getting the distinction. (besides, there's no lazy way out of any of that). it's almost like you're being elitist in saying "i found it therefore i won't share". especially after the intestines were destroyed.

btw, i don't appreciate being lectured about this. it would have been a lot more tactful to send a pm to me about your objections.

[PacMan]

No one ever said anything about not sharing, just sharing a little more discreetly, as in PM's and personal tours.

No one was lecturing that I could see. Just as you post what you want, so do I--as in my opinion. In the future, I will PM you copies of all my future posts for your approval.

[el_d00der1n0]

Originally Posted by PacMan

No one ever said anything about not sharing, just sharing a little more discreetly, as in PM's and personal tours.

No one was lecturing that I could see. Just as you post what you want, so do I--as in my opinion. In the future, I will PM you copies of all my future posts for your approval.

I post what I want and then you ask me indirectly not to post it.

I didn't get a PM for this post...

[evdog]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

ok then. what is mountain bike bill's site for? it shows people how to get to fun trails. are they just being lazy? i'm not getting the distinction. (besides, there's no lazy way out of any of that). it's almost like you're being elitist in saying "i found it therefore i won't share". especially after the intestines were destroyed.

btw, i don't appreciate being lectured about this. it would have been a lot more tactful to send a pm to me about your objections.

Bill's site is for exactly the reason you stated. However most of the rides in Bill's site are either official, mapped, legal riding areas or they are areas that have been around for ages and are well-known. If you look at PQ/DMM he shows only the official trails in the preserve and what was up on DMM (not official but well-known and established). Granted that report is somewhat outdated but I doubt Bill will start posting maps of tunnels and other new stuff in there until the area's status is more certain. He is a knowledgeable advocate of trail access and no doubt practices discretion when deciding what areas to publish trail info on.

In the above comment I am in no way trying to be elitist. I have shown some of the new trails to a lot of people, IN PERSON. That means that I can judge whether a person is likely to be skilled enough to handle the trail I am about to show them, and that they are a responsible rider. If a trail is over their head then there is a good chance they will damage it by skidding, cutting corners or worse injure themselves, which is why I would not take them on it. Some of the trails in tunnels are steep, tight and/or technical enough that they are over the head of lots of riders - and look at the degradation that has taken place on them in just a few months.

By posting directions on a public board such as this you have no clue who may see it. Unfortunately some who will see your directions are those who may skid, cut corners, leave trash, cut trees/branches, or widen/braid the trail. Most will not but inevitably some will. Yes they could find it on their own and do the same but I find generally that those who are willing to do some exploring to find trails themselves or through riding buddies tend to be those who ride more, are thus more skilled, and are people who would tend to better appreciate and respect the trails.

Now that is just the bikers who may see your directions on line. After being confronted for "threatening" Chocolate Rain on all equestrians you should be well aware that they visit this board. As do land managers, forest service and others - we have no way to know who. Maybe its environmentalists or other users who want to shut us down. Or it could be land managers who become concerned after reading posts about new trails and decide to clamp down. It would not necessarily matter that most of these trails were already here and that bikers just discovered and revived them. The more we can keep places like this off the radar the better we will be. So I am not trying to keep everyone out of the area, I just want to keep it more low-key.

Once groups like SDMBA and multi-use trails coalition can work with the land managers to make these trails official then by all means let everyone know. But for now if you want to show people how to get here please do like pacman said and use PMs or directions in person. Please don't post directions on this site or others like your new dirttraders site.

Sorry if you don't like being lectured but this is important, and I am just trying to look out for what is best for us all. I have called people out on this before and will do so again. I have seen unofficial riding areas at home get shut down because too many people found out about an area too quickly including the land manager - partly because of people's lack of discretion on forums.

[dudevf1]

I was at LPQ a few weeks ago and surprised to see the number of riders with long travel bikes. We talked with some and they explained where the trails are located. I didn't have time to ride them but it appears from that day and talking with others that they are heavily used.

[el_d00der1n0]

I still think there's a fuzzy line there. Tunnels isn't by any means a secret trail (nor illegal or SDMBA wouldn't have it on their front page) -- and neither is the new one for that matter. MTBBill hasn't updated his site for it, but he does point out routes at other places that are equally endangered where access is concerned (pretty much any trail in SD County). Don't get me wrong -- I'm VERY thankful for what he's doing. I'm just suggesting there isn't a huge difference. People will ride trails and skid and do damage. It happens unfortunately. Hell, I was working on Martha's Grove a few months ago, and people were skidding where we had just worked.

I just want to be helpful, and I want people to enjoy what I enjoy. I will respect the wishes of you and Pacman, and I already have by removing the directions.

As for being lectured, my point is if Pacman wanted me to drop the directions off my post, a simple request via PM would have been preferable instead of dragging this (his) thread through two pages of off topic discussion.

The eqs have already found the trails -- I've seen the evidence. Oh, and I don't mind sharing trails with horses -- I just wish they'd clean up after themselves...

[PacMan]

I didn't PM you, because I figured if others could see it as well, it may stop it from happening in the future. I tried to phrase it in a nice way. I used phrases like IMO and gave legitimate examples of why I was posting it.

I also ended my post with: "Thanks!!" to try to show that I was not trying to be a jerk or admonish or lecture. It's the internet--you know as well as I that Smileys are one of the few ways to show intent and tone and meaning. Which is why I ended mine the way I did, so you'd know I wasn't trying to be a jerk.

No one was being elitist--as was plainly explained, by suggesting directions be given via PM or in person.

I'm sorry you took it the way you did, but it didn't need to go here at all. I think it's easy to see that from the previous posts. To quote something you posted a little while back: "Relax man, we're all friends here."

[SDstumpy]

Wow! So where we riding saturday morning?

[ocd]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

Tunnels isn't by any means a secret trail (nor illegal or SDMBA wouldn't have it on their front page) -- and neither is the new one for that matter.

The MBA should really be leading by example and those pics should not be on their website.


2 year ago it was very rare to spot another bike in "the tunnels", I would get half lost myself getting in and out. Now, you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting someone on the latest, greatest FS bike "rad shredding" the tunnels.
Funny.

I do enjoy lurking and seeing the spats brew about this though, please continue on.

P.S. I do agree though. Let some people put in some leg work and find some trails, the exploration and discovery is half the fun. Then again, I'm not a fan of the group hug.

[el_d00der1n0]

My plan is to find that switchback. I figure I'll start nine-ish. If anyone wishes to join me, let me know.

[Zippy]

I'll be out there Sat morning. At the West endof LPQ, clipping in at 0600; 2 hours total. No stops: I have to be at work at 10.

Call me if you need to.

Eric
(714) 348-8353

[FatWhat?]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

My plan is to find that switchback. I figure I'll start nine-ish. If anyone wishes to join me, let me know.

Just don't tell anyone where it is because obviously the wrong thing to do.