PV: The axe is falling.....

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by Flat Broke

I bet if Troy had known beef jerky could get people out to meetings, he would have rolled it into the CORBA recruiting aresnal long ago
Chris

Cough twice to get the jerky bag tossed to ya....3 times for a red Bull!!
Heading down now to sis' in Torrance first...see ya there.

[DownHillPhil]

I was coughing nonstop until I left...where was my redbull!

J/k

Good to see you there Chris, also met Flat Broke. Pleasure.

[deusxq]

So can anyone who stayed the entire meeting let us know what happened? I had planned on staying 2 hours, but, should've realized that nothing would happen right away. Also, it was nice meeting those who I didn't know before.

[Sharky]

Went till 11:15 praise beef jerkey!!
I'll let Chris and Doug give details but just a few thoughts. The Land conservancy wanting the city to adopt an emergency ordinance to ban bikes except on Burma I strongly believe the city will keep level heads and not put this into place. There's no reason for them NOT to wait on PUMP and they're close to completing this. PUMP voted on half the trails in that section last night. I found it interesting watching our favorite "bikers are bunny killers" member as Doug "Drclark" spoke she paid no attention shuffled her papers around and finally gave him a look at the end of his statements. IMO just disrespectful. There is no interest on her part in accepting anything we have to say and that's that. Thanks to those who came out and our STR folks made some good points last night that other members mentioned later so they atleast are listening.

[drclark]

[FONT=Verdana]In my opinion, the meeting went OK. It started out with some announcements and clarification of the brown act. The city staff also talked about the conservancy board's vote to recommend closing the area to bikes (with the exception of the fireroad) until the PUMP plan is complete. The city council will vote in one of its upcoming meetings whether or not to have a public workshop to consider the idea. I forget the exact dates but it looks like the public workshop would happen sometime in January so nothing will change until then. Hopefully the PUMP will be complete and approved by the council before that.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]The committee resisted our "favorite" member's attempt to derail the entire process by claiming that bicycles were off road vehicles (per Webster’s definition of vehicle) and the founding documents that grant the management easement specifically forbid off road vehicles. The committee moved to have the city attorney look into the matter and would revisit the issue later if necessary. I later looked up the CA legal definition of "vehicle". VC670 specifically exempts any device that is "human powered" from being defined as a vehicle, so we this should be a non-issue. Ironically, a saddle could be considered a vehicle under [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]California[/FONT][FONT=Verdana] code.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]After that the committee went trail by trail determining use. There was committee discussion on each trail with a chance for public comment. We won some and lost some. The fireroad will have a posted speed limit that is to be determined by the conservancy. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Badlands[/FONT][FONT=Verdana] and many other trails we currently ride are not on the map and will likely be closed. Hopefully there will be an opportunity to add some of those trails back. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]The major point that seems to be driving multi-use vs ped/equestrian only is that the horsemen want a continuous route from the bottom to the top (not on the fireroad) with no bikes so they can feel "safe". The claim is that most equestrians feel so unsafe if bicycles are on a trail they will avoid it all together. I tried to challenge the notion that bikes and horses cannot co-exist safely on the trails, but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Our favorite committee member continued to whip out her pictures of poor biker behavior demonstrating the need to close trails to bikes. The moderate committee members seem to be disregarding her more and more. I actually addressed her directly in the public comment period. I pointed out the unfairness of trying to punish bikers for behaviors in an area where there have been no rules for 20 years. It’s like a cop giving you a ticket for running a stop sign that is going to be put up next week. I also stated that once the rules are put up most bikers will abide by them and I would personally be willing to help weed out the bikers who won't abide by them. The point is the rules need to be put up first and give us a chance to follow them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Bottom line, we as a community do need to recognize that we do share the area with other users and that the conservancy's primary job is preserving the habitat. I would encourage all bikers to be polite and courteous to everyone you encounter out there. It doesn't take much effort to smile and say "hello, are you having a good time today?" Fair or not, the image of the entire mountain biking community can be driven by a few bad apples feeding already negative preconceptions. All it would take to get the entire area shut down to bikes is one biker-hiker or biker-horse collision that resulted in significant injury. I can tell you that other members of the public and some committee members have come up to me after various meetings saying "responsible riders like you are not the problem, its those crazy riders who come flying down with no respect for anyone else". [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]The best thing we can do out there is ride responsibly. When doing the jumps that are out there, make sure you have a spotter down trail to ensure no hikers might be coming. When landing jumps roll out and come to a gentle stop rather than locking up the rear wheel and skidding to a stop. If you cannot descend a section without skidding the whole thing, then don't. Everyone needs to ride in a manner that they can stop safely if they suddenly encounter another user. That means slowing down in areas where you cannot see at least 75-100 ft ahead of you. You need to ride like a hiker could be coming around every blind corner. AND FOR GOD'S SAKE STAY ON ESTABLISHED TRAILS!!!!!!! What is hurting our case the most is the perception that bikers are out there creating new trails, lines through corners, and dropins. People are getting up and saying such and such dropin or line wasn't there 5 years ago.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]We have to accept that the era of free-riding in del-cerro is going to end. We are fighting for basic access at this point. The positive note is that there seems to be significant support within the committee for the establishment of a "funzone" where free-riding would be permitted. This land would likely be outside official conservancy land so all the committee can do is recommend it to the city council. We will continue to push for this with the council but there are no [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]guarantees.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Next meeting is Wednesday Nov 28 at 7 pm. Hopefully they will be able to finish up the trail map and get overall plan approved.[/FONT]

drc

[Flat Broke]

While last night's meeting was long, it was actually pretty productive considering the dysfunctional elements of the committee. I counted 15 trails that were decided upon last night with an additional 2 trails that were removed from the list though they were never on the formal map. Sadly one of those trails is Badlands. There is a unique geologic feature (pillow lava) in the area that is rare enough to be of concern and hence no public access through badlands is planned. I'm working on getting a copy of the power point map used in the meetings, so I can keep a tally and update it after each meeting so everyone here can quickly see where ground is lost and won for bikes within the reserve. So as far as the main agenda items, the committee did alright and covered trails in a fairly efficient manner.

About the bike ban proposed by the Conservancy... The committee and public were made aware that the City Council has made an adjustment to the agenda for the November 20th City Council meeting to address the ban. The public and committee were told that the discussion will be about a recommendation that the City Council schedule a public workshop to get input on the issue. This workshop would tentatively be scheduled for sometime in January/early February. If things go as stated, this would mean that the City Council would make no decision regarding the actual enforcement of the ban next Tuesday. My only concern is that the same core group of individuals, whose monetary contributions influenced the Palos Verdes Peninsula Land Conservancy’s decision to recommend the emergency measure, will have similar influence with the City Council. I don’t know enough about Rancho Palos Verdes politics to ascertain how probable that is. Things I see in our favor are the fact that the City Council recognizes how hard it would be to implement and enforce the ban. Additionally, since the reigns haven’t been given over to the conservancy, the City Council is likely to want public input on the issue, which means they would need time to notify the public. So the workshop dates in Jan/Feb seem to make sense. If I get information from those closer to the political on goings in RPV that indicates our presence is prudent on Tuesday, I’ll be sure to post up here.

The last bits of information aren’t formal items from the committee but some impressions from other non biking members of the public and observations on comments made by a few committee members. To start, “Photo OP” (aka every MTBers worst nightmare on the committee) presented what looked like the deeds or escrow papers for the land purchased for the conservancy. She tried to extrapolate on language that indicated that “vehicle” use was to be prohibited within the area acquired for the conservancy. While it seemed that most of the committee saw this tactic for what it was, no one had the information handy to quell her argument within the timeframe of the meeting. As Doug (drClark here on the boards) quickly found out with a little research when he got home; according to the definition of a vehicle made by the CA DMV, bikes don’t fall under their definition of the term “vehicle”. So all of the posturing and discord that was a result of the introduction of these documents was basically for not.

One of the positives I took from the meeting was the fact that two separate committee members made reference to the possibility of a dedicated area for more challenging riding. There seems to be a growing consensus amongst the moderate committee members that using a dedicated area for more aggressive riding is a plausible way to constructively channel the energies of that segment of our group. There was even a recommendation for a future motion to explore the issue further.

Another active member of the equestrian community discussed the issue with me directly prior to the meeting and indicated that she had no issue with it. Considering the source, we may have decent support for what we’ll call the “zone” from the equestrians. While their support is obviously self serving, as the zone has the potential to reduce bike traffic in other areas; it’s noteworthy because garnering support for the idea from competing user groups can help sway their related committee members.

The last little anecdote was from a Portuguese Bend resident who approached Doug and myself after the meeting. The gist of the conversation was that she wished more mountain bikers were like those that attend the meetings. However, she also mentioned that there are bikers that are literally shuttling the lower 1/3rd of Del Cerro with pickups. Not a huge issue in and of itself, except the impression on the local community that the vehicles used are not residents in the gated community and are therefore trespassing. She also indicated that a measurable portion of the negative MTB element may well be local kids. I see this as an important issue, because as a community we can make the argument that some of the destruction being cited to limit our access is more an issue of a specific age group disrespecting the reserve, as opposed to our user group. It can be a tough sell to convince people that their kids aren’t behaving properly, but I see it as another way to spin things when “Photo Op” pulls out her notebook with pictures of bikers killing bunnies, destroying the trails, burning books, using Styrofoam containers, hiding WMDs, spreading disease, and every other malady of the reserve she blames on us.

With all that said, and barring the need for public attendance at the City Council meeting, the next PUMP committee meeting is scheduled for November 28th at 7pm. I would anticipate the meeting will go in similar fashion to last night, in which case a strong showing from the MTB community would be beneficial when discussion about a motion pertaining to specific trails is brought up. We can always use statements from the community in favor of multiuse access.

As soon as I can compile the map that represents the changes made at last night’s meeting, I’ll post it up.

Thanks to DownhillPhill and I think DeusXQ for showing up. It was nice meeting you, and I hope I’ll see you at the meeting on the 28th.

Oh yeah, an Jonkranked never showed with my pepperoni and sausage pizza and Code Red, so I had to make what I think has been my 4th consecutive midnight trip to Gag in the Bag in the past few weeks. I gotta tell ya that after sitting through those meetings for 4-5 hours, two of those nasty tacos really hit the spot. I would have hit Sharky up for the jerky, but I heard all the coughing and figured there was none left

Chris
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]

[dirtmistress]

So there is still a glimmer of hope! That's great news. I agree much of it could be 17 year old kids just getting their rocks off. They may be clueless as to what is going on! That is, till they pull up one day and see a bikes banned sign. Sad thing is thay would never know why!

[jonkranked]

hey guys sorry I couldn't make it... I didn't get out of work till 10pm last night (working with counterparts in HK has its downsides). Glad to hear things went ok. I'll try to make it next meeting.


(and if its any consolation to you wankers I have to work late again tonight. I don't know if its better than having to listen to Eva's inane babblings though).

[Flat Broke]

I'd rather work late

Chris

[DISCO]

I would like to thank everyone who has worked so hard to preserve our communities fair access to public lands. Much would be lost if not for your sacrifice and although most trail users will never recognize or acknowledge your efforts I am personally in your debt for stepping up and doing the right thing.

Now if we could just get all the assholes more motivated or at least civil.....

[drclark]

Your thanks are appreciated. At the very least I hope you can make it to the public hearing when the plan is unveiled. This fight won't end until the city council finally approves it.

This process has been very educational. On how local government works and how our sport is viewed. I would have never believed that people existed that had so much hate for bikers if I wasn't seeing it with my own eyes and ears. It is really important for each individual to understand how their behavior on the trails really does affect the image of the mtb community as a whole in the eyes of the other user groups.

I am also getting a taste of how it really feels to be in the minority; truly sterotyped and discriminated against. It really sucks to realize that by default peds/horses get access to any and all trails and its always a debate as to whether or not to allow bikes as well.

drc

[ssisyphus]

drclark,

I attended last nights meeting and I appreciate the thoughtful and polite manner with which you spoke. I especially enjoyed what seemed to be "light bulb" moment when one committee member asked you what you would do at the top of the fire station trail regarding the short no bike section in Rolling Hills and you replied that you would walk it..........PERFECT! That was so reasonable rational and genuine a reply that the committee member was having a "hey, these guys are alright" epiphany...good job.

My big concern is the PVPLC torches and pitch fork faction and their influence on the biking access.

I think that the member who hates bikes maybe doing us a favor with her theatrics diminishing her credibility and possibly the others with her intolerant viewpoint.

I am a member of PVPLP and have been for at least 10yrs I joined because I believe that open space and habitat restoration are a good thing. I also believe that the PVPLC needs to accommodate bike riding better than they are now.

I,m going to talk to some of the higher ups regarding the recent developments and try to get a better read on what's going on. Their bike ban proposal was such a slap in face to me and my family.....I need answers.

[drclark]

First, here is the trail use map as we stand after the 11/14/07 committee meeting. The trails in green are the ones we are going to be allowed to use. The ones in orange have not been decided yet. The dotted ones are trails that are either closed or not on the current committee map (i.e. closed by default). Badlands is a lost cause so lets not get too wound up over it. Apparently there are some unique geologic features in that area that should be protected.



Secondly, The city council addressed the proposed temporary bicycle ban proposed by the conservancy board last night. The council voted to allow the conservancy to close certain trails to ALL USERs for emergency habitat remediation. It is unclear at this point when these trail closures will begin or what trails will be involved. It is also unclear as to the conditions that these temporary closures will be lifted; we hope it will be the final approval of the long term PUMP. (This is second hand info; unfortunately I was unable to attend. Hopefully, Troy or someone will post soon to offer a firsthand account and correct any possible inaccuracies.)

It is vitally important that the mtb community respect these closures when they are posted. You can be sure our favorite committee member will be out there with her camera looking to snap pics of bikers ignoring the closures. Our future access to the area WILL BE JUDGED based on our compliance.

I am working on getting some flyers printed up. One is targeted at mountain bikers, the other is targeted at general users. I hope to be up there later today riding and passing them out. We are also planning on doing more "educational" rides over the holiday so stay tuned. I personally plan to be up there Friday and Saturday (maybe Thursday morning if I get permission from my other half.)

Remember, the next PUMP committee meeting is Wednesday 11/28/07.

drc

[roadkillross]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not upper burma. that is the best part. its much safer having us descend on a seperate trail than bombing on my big bike where hikers and families walk up....bad call on that trail IMO

[tekknics12]

Thanks DR. Clark for the Update!..
Mucho appreciation!..
I'm sure from all the MTN bikers that ride DC..
...
At least theirs hope....not totally banned...w/ extreme prejudice...well maybe that one lady on the board...
I hope we still have Grand Canyon to ride...my favorite...

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by tekknics12