PV: The axe is falling.....

[alank]

Honestly, this is really disappointing, we need to see evidence of the damage.

A.

[2w4s]

I'm not ignoring the fact that too many people claim land that should be open to the public, for public use. I have made many compromises, has she?

Also, I'm not advocating Illegal trail building or usage, I'm saying that there needs to be an equilibrium between trail users. She saying that "20somethings" are the scourge of the earth is akin to saying the some user group is less desirable than another. That's biggotry.

[alank]

Originally Posted by 2w4s

I'm not ignoring the fact that too many people claim land that should be open to the public, for public use. I have made many compromises, has she?

Also, I'm not advocating Illegal trail building or usage, I'm saying that there needs to be an equilibrium between trail users. She saying that "20somethings" are the scourge of the earth is akin to saying the some user group is less desirable than another. That's biggotry.

You are absolutely correct, that is plain ignorance and discrimination based on age.

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by 2w4s

I'm not ignoring the fact that too many people claim land that should be open to the public, for public use. I have made many compromises, has she?

Also, I'm not advocating Illegal trail building or usage, I'm saying that there needs to be an equilibrium between trail users. She saying that "20somethings" are the scourge of the earth is akin to saying the some user group is less desirable than another. That's biggotry.

If you ride a mountain bike, odds are high that you've "compromised" at some point on trail useage or access. You're absolutely right about the need for all trail users to strike a balance and respect each other's right to use the trails. My point is that this cannot happen if a small segment of the MTB riders continue to cut illegal trails and ride in a way that is not compatible with this area. If the bad apples can't be stopped, the land managers will shut down access for all MTB riders. By far the best outcome would be a dedicated area for this sort of riding, but IMHO that is a long shot on urban public land. And like it or not, the "20something" reference to the FR/DH crowd is accurate based on my experience. They are certainly not the scourge of the earth, but they are a disproportionate share of the problem riders.
R

[Schecky]

Re: Horses.
I managed a barn of 60 head for 11 years and drove four horses at a time by rollercoasters, vehicles and various other obstacles.
If your horse spooks readily at the sight of a bicycle then you are a poor horseperson who has not trained your animal well. You are irresponsible and should not be on the trails endangering others.

That being said, we as bikers must be respectful to all other trail users.

[DDB@OCR]

[FONT=Helv]Here's my unpolished notes on what I'd like to say tonight- I'm ignoring the recent council's desicion...let me know what you think: [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman]Topic: Banning bikes from trails- "Unjust and unfair…."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman](Greet the esteemed committee members and thank them for their efforts and the opportunity to speak.....) [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman](Intro- My name is Kevin Moore, 47 y/o, I currently reside in Harbor City and have spent all of my life here in PV. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I was a volunteer with the USFS and Ca. State Parks from 1993 to 2003 doing back-country search and rescue on my dirt-bike, trail maintenance and habitat restoration. )[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I think I represent the majority of the cycling community when I say that banning cycling from the Canyons Area is simply unjust and unfair. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]The Canyons Area is supposed to be a multiple use area. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]This committee is supposed to be designating trails, deciding which ones are to be blocked to ALL users, not just bikes, and name these trails as well. But an inordinate amount of time is being spent on blaming cyclists and their habits, as well as judgment being passed on cyclists based on events stemming from hearsay. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Singling out a specific group for exclusion based on hear-say, hate and ignorance before even a final draft of designated trails has been approved is also unjust and unfair.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]All user groups create significant “impact”, not just cyclists.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Cyclists are also being singled out for significant ‘habitat destruction’. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I’m sorry, but I really have a gigantic problem with this as it is pretty much impossible to chop down a tree with a bicycle.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Again- all users create significant impact. Not just cyclists. To deny this fact is ludicrous. To single out cyclists is biased and prejudiced, regardless of ‘what or where’ may have or have not happened. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Re: Habitat. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I remain sensitive to the fact the ‘Canyon’s’ area in question, also loosely known as a ‘reserve’ and not yet officially labeled as same, has some issues that need addressing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]These issues can be addressed by two fine points: [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]1- Trail closures: it’s as easily as blocking a ‘drop-zone’ or a trail for ALL users (not just cyclists) with a simple 3-pc. post type fence/gate and a sign that would take literally minutes to install. Peeler-core, 4x4 etc. posts are cheap as dirt, work and look great. Blocking a trail to cyclists while others continue to use it has been proven fruitless and futile on many projects if true habitat restoration is the goal. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]2- Should we get one normal winter with some significant rain, most of the ‘habitat’ will be engulfed by dormant vegetation- as anyone that has been here for more than one full season knows. This whole Canyons Area literally becomes choked with plant life. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman]I have had the pleasure, as a CORBA Trail Team Leader, of working shoulder to shoulder under truly grueling conditions with some of the residents and cyclists here in the So. Bay on trail and habitat restoration projects. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would love to continue to do so and give my undying support to a good cause. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I’d also like to point out the cycling community consistently makes up over 40-50% of the total turnout on these major projects. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]However, it hardly seems fair that We, the ‘cycling community’, be called upon for hundreds and hundreds of volunteer hours worth of intense labor on trail and habitat restoration projects in the very area we are being banned from and denied access to. How do I justify this to my crew while asking them to continue to show up and sweat on their time? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I cannot.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]That is simply unjust and unfair.[/FONT]

[Flat Broke]

Where do I start?

If the MTB public knew about all the activity going on behind the scenes (both good and bad) it would make most folks give up on the public process instantly. The PVPLC "Ban" can be likened to your older sibling telling you not to do something without the approval of your parents. The PVPLC has no authority to implement a ban without explicit approval from the city council or formal adoption of the PUMP. Neither of these has happened yet, but the recommendation pisses me off none the less. Not because they did it, but because it is purely a "political" move with no regard to scientific data collected at other sites or Del Cerro/Portuguese Bend and neighboring portions of the preserve by the conservancy themselves.

If the conservancy moved strictly upon facts related to the preserve, they would know that the "habitat destruction" that is cited is largely related to the lack of rainfall. Further more, much of the vegetation that has been "damaged" by trail cutting (those trails get used by hikers and equestrians after they're cut) is not threatened or sensitive, and in most cases foreign/foreign invasive species. Ironically, the conservancy's published sub area plan calls for the removal of foreign and invasive species. Though you'd never want to say it in a committee meeting, much of the "destruction" that is touted by hikers is actually a good thing according to the plans the conservancy has for the area.

For those of you attending, please read this next part to further understand what we are trying to accomplish tonight, and how we hope to accomplish our goal. It is likely that the first motion raised (at least we hope so) will be to effectively have the committee vote on a portion of trails that there is already a consensus on with regard to use. Be assured that this block of trails doesn’t compromise biking in the form the motion should be presented. So during the public comment period, only brief statements supporting the motion should be needed. From there it will likely go on a trial by trail basis. If there is a motion for bikes on a trail and you want to support it, give a reason, like connectivity, good for families (if it’s appropriate etc.), or whatever valid reason is appropriate for the trail in question. Similarly, if there are trails that are motioned to be approved without bike access and you feel we need the trail, speak up during the public comments period and state your case why. The main goal for tonight is to keep the meeting moving in a positive manner and get the maps done. If the committee can do that, it will put it in front of the city council sooner than later, which could definitely be advantageous to dealing with this extraneous “ban” issue. Let’s keep the tone positive for tonight’s meeting, with the main agenda being to support approving the final maps. This moves us a step closer to getting in front of the city council/public comment phase to discuss the maps (hopefully supporting what will be a good situation for bikers). Then we can bring in all the scientific evidence we need to support our stance and it won’t be disregarded by the PUMP.

Let’s stay positive, keep on the task of supporting the trails we want/need in Del Cerro, and hopefully come out of this meeting feeling like something was accomplished. I look forward to seeing everyone again, and make sure to grab something to snack on as I’m sure this one’s going to run late.

See ya there,
Chris
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by alank

Honestly, this is really disappointing, we need to see evidence of the damage.

A.

Alan,

There is plenty of evidence of the damage. We as a community can't argue that the wrongs have been committed. With the lack of rainfall the area has received, it's plain as day. You can argue the bikes don't do as much damage as horses and pedestrians argument, but as I found out, they're not concerned with errosion on current trails, but rather the continual develpoment of new trails and subsequent injuries to the habitat.

If I wasn't a biker and just hiked Del Cerro, I could see why some of the stereotypes and assertions are being made. I'm in no way justifying them, but I can understand why some people have the perception they do. However, that in no way excuses their fanatical anti-bike ramblings and presentation of conjecture as fact.

Hopefully you can come out tonight and support our access to legitimate trails.

Chris

[spookydave]

so, is anyone riding before the meeting tonight??

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by Flat Broke

Alan,

There is plenty of evidence of the damage. We as a community can't argue that the wrongs have been committed. With the lack of rainfall the area has received, it's plain as day. You can argue the bikes don't do as much damage as horses and pedestrians argument, but as I found out, they're not concerned with errosion on current trails, but rather the continual develpoment of new trails and subsequent injuries to the habitat.

If I wasn't a biker and just hiked Del Cerro, I could see why some of the stereotypes and assertions are being made. I'm in no way justifying them, but I can understand why some people have the perception they do. However, that in no way excuses their fanatical anti-bike ramblings and presentation of conjecture as fact.

Hopefully you can come out tonight and support our access to legitimate trails.

Chris

I think you've got the right attitude/approach. Good luck.
R

[DDB@OCR]

I'm getting negative feedback from some (not STR peeps) that pre-viewed my notes and thoughts.

So I won't be taking the podium tonight.

This whole situation is out of control and I'm pretty sick of it all. Esp in light of some of the really sensitive area's I've worked on/in. PV is nothing compared to them.

This is all about hate and puffy chested peeps with agendas and a bougs idea of how an area should look they don't even use. Same will prolly slide into the sea the next big earthquake, like it did last time.

As far as new trails being cut by rebels. Show me one that has been made in the past year.

Keep fighting the good fight everyone. I'm running out of energy to fight for this cause. Please continue with your support, esp after all Troy has done for us the past few years.

I'm burnt and need a break, I have a really low tollerance for politics and BS .......I'm gonna go focus some energy on building my SS, fixing a broken pedal on Trigger and my new HT coming in two days.


-kevin.

[Flat Broke]

Kevin,

I only met you at the last meeting when you came and pointed out Sharky to me (at least I'm assuming that was you ); so you can blow this off if you want, as it's basically coming from a stranger. Many of us that have started showing up are new to the fight and haven't been through the ups and downs that many of the long term participants have. That being said, the efforts that have been laid before us are immeasurable and are greatly appreciated by myself and others.

Letting your frustration keep you from being there tonight and supporting a cause you've worked hard for, essentially lets Eva and the rest of the political agenda schmucks in the PVPLC conquer your spirit with little more than a recommendation to the city council. Bottom line, I agree that our tone should focus on the issues that Katy stated in her email, but I would love to see ya there. I kind of liken it to a fight. I'd prefer to be able to kick, punch, throw elbows, and use whatever tactics are available to conquer my enemy. However, if only kicking, or only punching would get good results and I was instructed to do so for the good of my cause, I'd show up just kicking or punching. A win is a win, wether we get it by directly retorting to many of the negative aspects of the PUMP committee, or through the high road approach. Either way, the mtb community can use all the help it can get; and as such, you still have tons to offer even if you don't speak to many of the points your proposed response mentioned.

I hope to see you there,
Chris

[Sharky]

Plus I'll have 3 kinds of beef jerkey to get us through this night!! Hit me up for the goods if any of you get hungry?
I enjoy these trails and never think twice about making the hour drive to get there plus my nephew lives just a few miles away in Torrance so it's the best to be able to share a ride there with family!! We always hit up this spot together when I visit so this is disheartening to say the least if we lose them. I'm in it for the long haul and hopeful for a positive outcome. See ya all there...
Chris

BTW weren't sure it was Chris so a little nervous about walking up to a complete stranger and asking "Are you Flat Broke ?"

[2w4s]

Anybody from Laguna Hills area going and want to carpool? preferably a really hot girl? j/k

[roadkillross]

go get em guys!!!!

[DDB@OCR]

Originally Posted by spookydave

so, is anyone riding before the meeting tonight??

Might be over there tonight if I can find a pedal... black hardtail. blu/blk shirt.

[superstock]

Originally Posted by PVt

[FONT=Gill Sans MT][FONT=Gill Sans MT]The ax has fallen.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Gill Sans MT]The Palos Verdes Peninsula Land Conservancy board voted unanimously last night to request that the City ban bicycles from all trails in the Canyons area except Burma Road until the PUMP is completed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Gill Sans MT]It's more important than ever to be at the meeting tomorrow night![/FONT]

Wow, being at one of the meetings and hearing Barbara and Becky (of the PVPLC) speak, it seems like the board is on a completely different page than the experts. It sounds like the board has fallen under spell to the emotional cries of SUNP or were influenced by donations or other tactics.

This sounds corrupt to me. How is this system supposed to work 'for the public'???

S

[jonkranked]

oh crap. i may not be able to make it tonight. the sh*t is hitting the fan so to speak here at work and I'm gonna be here late. How late, I don't know. If its still a reasonable time I'll zip over after work.


dangit i'm gonna miss beef jerky too