PV: The axe is falling.....

[Flat Broke]

Well,

After tonight's meeting, if I was going to ask for a super power solely for the purpose of going to trail access meetings, it would either be extreme patience, or the ability to silence closed minded twits with a mere glance.

The quick and dirty from tonight's meeting is that essentially nothing changed since last week. Everyone's favorite committee member managed to take approximately an hour and a half making amendments to the minutes of the previous to meetings.

If you recall, the meeting on October 30th adjourned with the discussion of trail uses for this meeting to be started using the "alternative" trail proposal that defeated SUNP1. Somehow the committee started off from the SUNP1 trail map (this is the one that sucks for bicyclists) and never really got back on track.

Public turnout was good, and much to my delight, the woman who received help from mountain Tekknics12 to rescue her dogs showed up to give us her support. The committee then used the opportunity to discredit her by referencing her off leash pets. I can’t help but feel that a few of the committee members are more than a little arrogant in their behavior towards public speakers.

Biker turnout was good, but the hiker contingent came with their own stories of, "my friend was hit by a mountain biker" etc. The low point for me came when a committee member "connected the dots" by identifying a dead rabbit along the side of the trail, and concluding that mountain bikers must have run it over. Another committee member then went on to buttress the argument by citing a time he came across a bunny that had been run over and left for dead. He went on to advise us as to how he had to kill the poor animal to put it out of its misery. Doug Clark made a good point about the previous year's record rains more than likely increased the bunny population; only to be followed by a drought that of course leaves an inadequate food supply for the now excessive bunny population. I'm sure at the next meeting they'll find a way to tag global warming on mountain bikers too.

With drama like this, who needs TV? Seriously, if you haven't been to a meeting yet, you should come if for no other reason than to test your patience and get first hand exposure to how frustratingly obtuse yet incredibly conniving some of the committee members are. [FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]J[/FONT][/FONT]

I could go on about all the little things that made my blood boil, but it's not worth the effort at this point in time. The important information to be conveyed is that there will be yet another meeting next Wednesday the 14th, where the committee, should discuss trail uses at Del Cerro on a trail by trail basis. Of course, that was supposed to be what happened this evening, so who knows. The important thing is that we continue to show up to support access for bikes, and give input to the committee.

It was good to see some other STR folks out there, and maybe even more that I didn't know were STR folks. Hopefully we can continue to grow our presence at these meetings throughout the remainder of the process.

Chris
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]

[DDB@OCR]

Wow-

I was there till 9:30, nothing really much got done other than a revision to the Del Cero gate access which needs to be done for bikers anyways, and, an additional trail from Grapevine to Burma. I had to go after that, I was exhausted and had to come to work this morning so...

2.0 hours of reviewing the last two minutes meetings.

Someone needs to gag E**. Unreal and pretty obvious what is going on there.

I hope something got done after I left.

I plan on speaking next week. I will be farther up in line this time. I've got stuff to say.

-

Does anyone know where that thread is with the info on the dog rescue at Del Cerro the other evening? The woman who owns those dog's was there and had many nice things to say about the bikers that saved her dogs and bikers in general, one of the rescuers was in attendance I think.

You guys are heros in her eyes.



Edit- nevermind- found it.

[drclark]

[FONT=Verdana]Ugh, where to start. I feel like we are fighting a delaying action at best. One important point I came away with is that last nights delay will probably put off start of official "management" by the conservancy til next March or later. The committee is starting to feel some real pressure to finish up and get their plan out for public comment and before the RPV city council. So much so that I got the feeling last night that the committee is getting frustrated with the amount of public comment at this meeting and last.

The "dead bunnies" thread of the meeting really ticked me off, and unfortunately demonstrates the abject bias of some of the committee members. One member even stated that he had to euthanize a bunny that was obviously run over by a biker and left to suffer.... Well, personally I always ride with a good knife as part of my riding kit so I can kill, skin and eat any bunnies I might hit.

Flat Broke pretty much summed up what happened. It was long, petty, and not much got done.

I stayed after the meeting, til about midnight, talking with a couple of the committee members who approached me after the meeting adjourned. One of them was one of the very vocal anti-biker members and another was one of the moderate members. The basic gist that I came away with was that "technical riding" has no place in the conservancy and it was the technical riders who are causing the most impact on the habitat and the most conflict with the other user groups. (like the woman who got up and said she was afraid to hike with her kids between 3-5pm on Sunday). In response I tried to emphasize the following points to the members I talked with.

1. Separate the habitat issue from the user conflict issue. I believe that we (cyclists) all can respect temporary trail closures for habitat issues. However, claiming that cyclists are causing damage and the area needs to be closed off yet only closing it to cyclists comes across as unfair. The map that the committee approves needs to show the long term usage vision based on a "healthy" habitat and needs to provide equitable access to the area.

2. User conflict issues can be managed. A system of alternating access between hikers and bikers on even/odd days has worked in other areas. I acknowledged that hikers might want and area where they can go with no worries (i.e. ped only) but then give the bikes a couple of bike-only trails.

3. Technical riding needs a place where it is allowed. It has been happening on the hill forever. Jumps have been built just about everywhere that was undeveloped or unmanaged. Banning that type of riding in the preserve will just push it to land that hasn't yet been acquired. I also pointed out that recent (past 5 years) "surge" of new trails and increased usage by technical bicyclists of the del cerro area corresponds to the closure and development of the old "fun zone" at the end of Hawthorne as well as other former technical areas being acquired by the conservancy. A commitment to establish a technical riding area by the committee would go along way toward gaining compromise on del-cerro trails and usage.

4. I don't believe the general public of RPV understands or would agree that the concepts of nature preserve and concepts of an open space recreation area are incompatible. One thing to note with the sun'p map was that alot of existing trails that are currently used by ALL users were slated to be closed. That is going to create enforcement issues and discontent across all user groups. I tried to point out that the conservancy is still dependent on public funding from the city of RPV for yearly operating budget. I suggested that the more people who use the reserve for recreation will mean more people would be more likely to contribute donations and volunteer labor and support it politically. Addionally, I stated that using an idea similar to adventure pass or establishing parking fees or some sort of use permit (all moderately priced) could help the conservancy raise $$ and be less dependent on the public coffers and help offset the impact of increased use.

Overall the conversations with the individual members were civil and I hope I was able to make a positive impression on them. Regardless of what access we eventually win, riding del-cerro will never be the same.

Well, until next week (11/14/07; 7:00 pm),

drc[/FONT]

[DDB@OCR]

That rabbit thing was a total crock. Tread marks on a pelt? Gimme a break. You hit a rabbit, yer prolly gonna go down. It'll prolly scamper off unphased.

And the one mentioned at Del Cerro? I see partially eaten/fresh kills quite often in the trail, bushes etc...who's to say if one gets 'run over' it wasn't already dead?

I've seen kids playing with the things, tossing them around etc....!

[jonkranked]

I'd like to take a minute here to address the topic of "technical riding". I myself am an active downhill racer (for the last 2 years), and have been involved and associated with what is commonly referred "freeride community" for roughly 5 years. I have seen pretty much the breadth of issues stemming from this kind of trail building. I want to avoid getting into lengthy detail at the moment (I'm at work and my time is limited), but I want to sum things up a little bit. (For the sake of argument I will use the terms "freeriding" and "technical riding" interchangeably, just because its faster to type).

I am familiar with the mentality that many of these trail builders have. It is very unfortunate to say that far too often these trails and features are built with little regard to whatever rules are put into place for any given parcel of land. However, almost always the cause of this is the complete and total lack of a location where they can legitimately construct this style of trail. As this is a new and fledgling sub-segment in the world of mountain biking, there has, until relatively recently, been little precedence in dealing with this issue. Instead of taking the time to understand and work with "freeride" trail builders, most land owners, organizations, what have you, have simply written them off as renegades that need to "be put a stop to". Alas, it wasn't this easy. "Freeriding" has taken root and is here to stay. It is a wildfire that cannot be put out; the best you can do is control it (sorry for this metaphor, it was the best I could come up with).

Industry trends also prove this. Bikes deemed worthy to withstand "freeriding" used to only be available from small, boutique frame builders. Currently, nearly every major manufacturer of bicycles has in their lineup at least one (many times several) bicycle intended for "freeride" use. Now that the major companies are in it, these bikes can be sold at a lower cost and are therefore more accessible to more people, hence over the last few years there has been significant growth to the sport of freeriding.

This influx of riders has brought the issue of trailbuilding much more to the forefront of everyone's attention. As stated before, I have seen a myriad of these issues. In a few unfortunate instances, several riders nearly got arrested (land access issues, etc). I have seen disputes between freeriders and hikers, and also freeriders and other mountain bikers. I have seen booby traps set as well as sabotaging of stunts (which is many times more dangerous than the stunts themselves- yes, I feel that these kinds of stunts/features/what have you carry some inherent danger to them, but that's a whole other can of worms). Nearly all of these were a direct result of having nowhere to legitimately build freeride trails. Luckily, in a few positive situations, once this issue was addressed and segments of land were alloted for "freeride" use, virtually all of these issues subsided.

Point is, there is an obvious need for a "freeride" or "technical riding" area. For all i care you can call it a barbeque sandwich. I think it would be worth getting the freeriders involved, as this directly concerns them - get their input as to what they want, and work to establish standards of building quality. This ensures that everything is constructed to a safe standard. Working with them rather than against them is, in my (and I'm sure many others, especially those who have dealt with this dilemma before) opinion the only realistic option. If it is ignored or outright banned, the problem is only going to get worse. Trust me. I have seen it before. If you don't give them anywhere to go, they'll go wherever they want.

[DownHillPhil]

I was at the meeting last night as well (11/7/07) and I was simply appalled at how catty and inefficient the committee as a whole is. At many points I felt inclined to stand up, walk to the center of the room, and slap the s*** out of the people arguing. It is mind-blowing how long it can take to vote on something so simple as "do we open Burma to MTB & add a ped/horse trail from ishibashi to burma"

Fortunately there are members that are advocating MTB use of many trails, as well as advocating the incorporation of CORBA's trail-map proposal with a blend of the other usergroup's proposals to find a happy medium.

I will probably be attending the future meetings as well.

[jonkranked]

no, its not the committee as a whole, its one particular member (and maybe 2~3 others, but all 3 of them combined are nowhere near as useless as this particular member). I will not name this person, but if you were there you know EXACTLY who I am talking about. Its quite obvious that the person in question is getting desperate, having previously been called out on introducing speculation as fact. This person has now resorted to stalling the process as a whole in what is hopefully a last ditch effort.

[JamR]

There are a ton of good points being made here, but if you read some of these posts, there are bikers who are just as single focused as the people in the meeting who are anti-mountain bike people.

Both sides have level headed people and both sides have one-sided people.

Sounds like the rabbit issue may have been over-stated at the meeting, but if anyone has been on these boards for a while; I'm sure they can remember the post a few years back on Socalmtb.com about the rider who came across a rabbit with a broken back (clearly hit by a bike) and had to be put out of its misery by the rider.

Also how may people here have seen the photo on the mountain bike boards with the dead squirrel wrapped up in the front rotor of a mountain bike that so many people make fun of?

The point is.....there is both responsibility and some lack of responsibility on both sides.

That being said…..wildlife is affected by All Users including the land managers who travel the area in vehicles. I've seen wildlife hit by bikes, killed by a hikers dog, and hit by researchers vehicles. No one group stands innocent here; but we need to lose the attitude here that we are completely innocent of the charges.

The bottom line issue here for P.V. seems to be simply if bikers and hikers can co-exist on that trail system....and IMO if properly managed they can. That's why I'm personally not a proponent of odd/even days for hikers and bikers. Because this seems to be an admission of the lack of compatibility of the two user groups; and goes against many of the very successful efforts in other areas that have a good cooperative multi-use trail system.

As far as Freeriding, Stunts and built-in trail features.........just because a particular aspect of a sport becomes popular does not mean it automatically earns a right for access into areas where other uses are previously established and accepted.

You do not garner public support by shoving your way in by building unsanctioned trails and features. This only leads to situations like P.V. is facing today, with the bikers finally stepping up for an 11th hour effort to maintain access.

Unfortunately when things like this are done in the reverse order (ie...starting with unauthorized access, then getting involved to try to gain or keep legal access), the group as a whole loses credibility and has to fight an uphill battle.

Public meetings and public opinion issues like this unfortunately take time, and there are a lot of mundane items to sit through in-between; but it is still worth staying involved with and working for legitimate access.

Everyone just needs to keep pushing forward and stay involved; and simply keep sticking to the facts and the success stories where multi-use trail systems are working. And also look for areas and options for legal freeride venues and work towards access in those areas.

If each side simply sits back pointing fingers at the other side; nothing will get done.


Just get involved and stay involved:
Show up to the meetings
State legitimate facts in a calm manner
Be respectful to the other side even if you vehemently disagree
Openly admit to the other side the areas where we have been wrong
Try to take care of the problem areas and the problem people within our own side by peer pressure and self-policing
Have patience and stay involved for the long-run

Bikers can make a difference, but only if they are willing the stay-the-course and put in the effort.

Good luck up there, and I hope to make the next meeting if it fits my schedule.

Thanks,

See ya on the trails

[EMrider]

As far as Freeriding, Stunts and built-in trail features.........just because a particular aspect of a sport becomes popular does not mean it automatically earns a right for access into areas where other uses are previously established and accepted.

You do not garner public support by shoving your way in by building unsanctioned trails and features. This only leads to situations like P.V. is facing today, with the bikers finally stepping up for an 11th hour effort to maintain access.

Unfortunately when things like this are done in the reverse order (ie...starting with unauthorized access, then getting involved to try to gain or keep legal access), the group as a whole loses credibility and has to fight an uphill battle.

+1 on this point. Here and elsewhere, I suspect this is going to be the make or break issue over time. If an agreement is reached for MTB trail access, but FR folks continue to build illegal trails/jumps/stunts, the deal will collapse. Public land managers and certainly private property owners have a right to say "no" to certain types of activity. It would be ideal to have an area set aside for FR/DH activity (in PV or anywhere else). That appeals to me a lot and I'd be a user for sure. But reality is that may not be what happens here. Actually, on public land I'd say the odds are very low.
Rob

[Flat Broke]

Adam,

Thank you for the points you made in your post. As I've said in PMs and in these threads, I feel bad for only getting involved now, when people like Troy, Kurt, Kevin, and others have been fighting this specific battle for 4 years. That being said, my commitment to seeing this through is absolute.

With regard to you comming out for the next meeting, it will be on November the 14th at 7pm. I know you are well versed in these matters, and I firmly believe that type of experience is invaluable to our efforts. Hopefully "Photo Op" can put her personal nonsense asside long enough for the committee to pursue the business of discussing uses for trails on a trail by trail basis. If they could stick to that format, they could probably work through the project in a single meeting.

Johnkranked,

I am in agreement with you that setting asside an area in a non-sensitive habitat for "technical riding" could have a wonderful outcome that not only alleviates many of the pressures contributing to some of the mis use, but also creates a way to incorporate the subset of riders that are viewed as problematic into a productive resource group that can help the preserve.

Perhaps we need to tactfully discuss this area with relation to enforcement. There is obvious concern about enformcement issues amongst the committee members. If we can show how a separate area like the one that had been mentioned a couple of weeks ago, could be a means to reduce the need for enforcement by drawing "problem users" out of the majority of the preserve; the idea might be easier to swallow.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I hope to see everyone at next week's meeting. Considering it will probably run late, maybe we should plan to catch some late grub somewhere in the lowlands before everyone heads their separate ways.

Chris

[DownHillPhil]

Originally Posted by jonkranked

no, its not the committee as a whole, its one particular member (and maybe 2~3 others, but all 3 of them combined are nowhere near as useless as this particular member). I will not name this person, but if you were there you know EXACTLY who I am talking about. Its quite obvious that the person in question is getting desperate, having previously been called out on introducing speculation as fact. This person has now resorted to stalling the process as a whole in what is hopefully a last ditch effort.

Fair enough I would think that the remaining level-headed adults could somehow stem the tide of "Filibustress" I will call this particular member . Even so, I am happy I went. It was very easy to recognize which members were there with a goal-oriented philosophy and which were there to further his/her own personal agenda.

A few people I have met have dubbed an anonymous hiker the "trail nazi"

[DownHillPhil]

Sunday bump - local riders, next meeting is on Wednesday at 7 if I am not mistaken. RPV city hall

If you missed the 11/7 meeting you didn't miss anything. As covered above, nothing whatsoever was accomplished.

[Flat Broke]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It’s Del Cerro PUMP Committee meeting time again! Last week's shenanigans from one of the committee members aren't likely to be tolerated for long by the remainder of the committee. That is why it is important that we attend each and every one of these last few meetings to determine the fate for bikes on the trails. There are people that have been involved with the fight on this specific piece of dirt for over 4 years. The least anyone that rides there (or would like to be able to in the future) can do is show up to support the cause through these last few meetings.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Believe it or not, there are actually non-bike people on the committee that are SERIOUSLY entertaining the idea of a designated "challenging terrain/technical riding" area in addition to more AM pursuits in the rest of the preserve.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]If you've ever ridden at Del Cerro or are open to the idea of having an area specifically set aside for technical riding without hiker/equestrian conflicts, please make it a point to attend the meeting this Wednesday.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]If you're afraid of public speaking, at least come out to support the pro-bike movement with your presence. In all honesty, right now the most important thing the average user can do is step up to the podium and make a short statement about how they support multiuse trails, are courteous to other trail users, and don’t want to lose the privilege of enjoying the habitat of the preserve by bike. Additionally, if you are supportive of a dedicated area for more challenging pursuits; make a statement to affirm how you feel the value of a dedicated technical area as a constructive outlet for the more adventurous demographic of bikers. A couple hours of your time and a few sentences at the podium can make a HUGE difference in MTB access to this area.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]For any new attendees, the location and time is below. While the meeting starts at 7, the room has been filling up quickly; so I’d recommend getting there early to nail a seat, and talk to your fellow bikers for a while before the meeting begins.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]PUMP Committee Meeting (Public Use Master Plan)
City of Rancho Palos Verdes
Wednesday, Nov. 14th at 7 pm
[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]City Hall Community Room
30940 Hawthorne Blvd., Rancho Palos Verdes[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I look forward to seeing everyone there,[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Chris[/SIZE][/FONT]

[XTIRC]

Bikers ruining preserve
The mountain bikers and the Portuguese Bend Nature Preserve are at a crossroads because of inroads made by renegade mountain bikers. These renegades are cutting up the hills with their daredevil riding. The preservationist mountain bikers are staying on the established trails, being courteous to other trail users and yet getting the brunt of the punishment for the actions of others. The scars across the hills of the preserve are a sad testament to the immature actions of the twenty-somethings coming in from out of the area and from our midst riding their daredevil mountain bikes.
Ostracizing the entire group of mountain bikers, however, for the actions of the minority is not going to solve this problem. These daredevils are going to do their dirty deeds regardless of a moratorium on mountain bikers.
We, the users of the preserve and the preserve itself, need a solution. I hope cooler heads prevail in finding the best answer.
Using positive parenting skills rather than punitive ones may have the best chance of success. The Peninsula Land Conservancy needs our support in solving this serious problem.
- SHARON NOLAN
Rancho Palos Verdes

[DownHillPhil]

Originally Posted by XTIRC

Bikers ruining preserve
The mountain bikers and the Portuguese Bend Nature Preserve are at a crossroads because of inroads made by renegade mountain bikers. These renegades are cutting up the hills with their daredevil riding. The preservationist mountain bikers are staying on the established trails, being courteous to other trail users and yet getting the brunt of the punishment for the actions of others. The scars across the hills of the preserve are a sad testament to the immature actions of the twenty-somethings coming in from out of the area and from our midst riding their daredevil mountain bikes.
Ostracizing the entire group of mountain bikers, however, for the actions of the minority is not going to solve this problem. These daredevils are going to do their dirty deeds regardless of a moratorium on mountain bikers.
We, the users of the preserve and the preserve itself, need a solution. I hope cooler heads prevail in finding the best answer.
Using positive parenting skills rather than punitive ones may have the best chance of success. The Peninsula Land Conservancy needs our support in solving this serious problem.
- SHARON NOLAN
Rancho Palos Verdes

Dirty Deeds...sounds like something out of a comic. Who is our archnemesis? I think we know...

[PVt]

[FONT=Gill Sans MT][FONT=Gill Sans MT]The ax has fallen.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Gill Sans MT]The Palos Verdes Peninsula Land Conservancy board voted unanimously last night to request that the City ban bicycle