PV: The axe is falling.....

[Flat Broke]

I was going to leave around the same time from California Heights/Bixby Knolls. I can take 2 others, but don't know about driving to downtown to have to fight back up to the 405. I was planing on taking the 405 into Torrance, then heading towards PCH via Van Ness before cutting over to Hawthorne and up to the Civic Center. I'm pretty familiar with traffic going this way and know I'll have plenty of time.

If I were to take Anaheim through the ghetto, to PV drive N, accross to Hawthorne, and then down to the civic center; how bad will the traffic be? Either way, I'll be at the meeting.

Out of curiosity, how are folks dressing for this? I know the CORBA folks said to wear your shirt (don't have one) or biking gear so you're easily distinguishable, but that seems counter-intuitive to me for something like this.

Chris

[Sharky]

I was just going to wear my STR t-shirt ??? to distinguish myself as in support of the bikers.



*Seriously hope we get a positive outcome from tomorrow night.*

[spookydave]

ok I'm 99% there. But seeing as it is a long drive for me well, I'd like to hit up the Cizzel before. Anyone else want to??

[Stray_Bullit]

Originally Posted by spookydave

ok I'm 99% there. But seeing as it is a long drive for me well, I'd like to hit up the Cizzel before. Anyone else want to??

I wish I could but my wife would get mad if I left my two little ones at home alone while I went riding! Sounds tempting though... I want to go (to the meeting) but I have two kids, a 3 year old and 22 months. If I bring them, it may just be for a moment. They can be quite a distraction!

[guero]

chaps, im down. lets talk tomorrow. i'll wear my lycra...

[chongoblanco]

good luck tomarrow sorry i cant make the meeting let me know what i can do to help im still trying to read all of the thread thanks!

[drclark]

I'm new here but have been riding for a long time and used to race quite a bit. For those who plan on writing letters or going to tomorrow's meeting, I've been digging on the web for info that hopefully will be useful. Lots of links provided below.

On DDB@OCR's concerns:

Also- I heard we should keep the 'I heard about riding in PV on the internet' on the down low. One of those hatin' kooks is claiming the interweb is causing an influx of outside riders (whatever the hell that means) to come from all corners and increase the impact etc. There's no end to their ammo.

First, the del cerro area has long been known to bikers and have been published in several so-cal mtb trail guides in the past.

Second, I think this is technically against the charter of one of their grants to try to limit access to outsiders especially with them accepting all that juicy state and federal money to purchase the land. (see page 2)
http://www.coastalconservancy.ca.gov...los_Verdes.pdf
http://www.coastalconservancy.ca.gov...Verdes_Ex6.pdf

"Based on the accompanying staff report and attached exhibits, the State Coastal Conservancy hereby finds that:

1. The proposed project is consistent with Chapter 6 of Division 21 of the California Public Resources Code (Sections 31251-31270) with respect to coastal resource enhancement;

2. The City, as the local public agency having jurisdiction over the project area, requests Conservancy assistance consistent with Public Resources Code Section 31251.2(a).

3. The proposed project is consistent with the Project Selection Criteria and Guidelines adopted by the Conservancy on January 21, 2001, and

4. The proposed project would serve a greater-than-local need."

Additionally, the RPV advertised the acquisition to all southbay cities in search of resolutions of support. Here is a resolution passed by Hermosa Beach in support. I would assume similar resolutions were passed in other southbay cities.

http://www.hermosabch.org/department...0050614/2l.pdf

June 9, 2005
Honorable Mayor and Members of Regular Meeting of
the Hermosa Beach City Council June 14, 2005

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]RESOLUTION OF SUPPORT FROM THE CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES TO ACQUIRE LAND FOR THE PORTUGUESE BEND NATURE PRESERVE [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Recommendation: [/FONT]
That the City Council adopt a resolution of support for the preserve and urge the Wildlife Conservation Board to provide funding for the additional acquisition.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Background: [/FONT]
The City of Rancho Palos Verdes has requested that all South Bay cities join in supporting their application for funding. The Wildlife Conservation Board provides grant funding for these types of projects and this project certainly could be accessible to Hermosa Beach residents as well as other South Bay cities. A wide show of support is helpful in getting the grant funds. Adoption of the attached resolution simply expresses the City’s support for the Wildlife Conservation Board to assist Rancho Palos Verdes in the acquisition of this land.
Respectfully submitted,
Stephen R. Burrell
City Manager

I'm also convinced that eliminating bikes from upper del cerro has been in the plan all along.

http://www.pvplc.org/land/portuguesebend/faqs.pdf
(see page 3 - note, this document if from 2004 or earlier - before the grants and land sale was final)

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Bold]What about athletic fields?[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Times-Roman][SIZE=3]The preserve contains no sites that have been proposed as sports facilities. There is no conflict[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]between the two community goals. The acquisition proposal will also include a 25-acre parcel in the[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]active landslide which is not in the preserve to serve as the gateway for public access. This is referred[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]to as the "active recreation area" and is a potential location for an equestrian facility.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times-Bold][SIZE=3]Will the preserve bring people from other areas to the Peninsula to use the trails?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times-Roman][SIZE=3]People from other areas are already using the trails. When the preserve is established, we will be able[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]to manage those recreational uses. For example, we are working with local bicyclists to set up a[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]volunteer group to educate other bicyclists about proper trail etiquette. We are proposing that the[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]active recreation area become the major access point to the preserve, thus reducing the impacts to the[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]Del Cerro area. We do not plan to advertise the preserve or publicize trail maps, except perhaps to[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]elementary schools as an educational resource. One of our major goals is to make sure that the[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times-Roman]preserve is an asset to the Peninsula.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Some other documents worth reading.
http://www.palosverdes.com/rpv/cityc...n_protocol.cfm
http://www.palosverdes.com/rpv/cityc...open_space.htm
http://palosverdes.com/rpv/citycouncil/agendas/2005_Agendas/MeetingDate-2005-11-15/open_agenda.cfm?id=RPVCCA_SR_2005_11_15_11_scc%20g rant%20agreement.htm

Coastal Conservancy Grant guidelines
http://www.coastalconservancy.ca.gov..._Standards.pdf

Wildlife Conservation Board Grant policies
http://www.wcb.ca.gov/pdf/WCBPolicie...Agreements.pdf

hope some of this helps,
drc

P.s. Don't forget this is OUR tax $$ at work. Most of the money came from state props 40 & 50 bond measures. Remember that next time you are voting on the next round of bonds.

[Flat Broke]

That was timely.

I've spent the better portion of the last 5 hours doing research on the NCCP grant process, Bond Accountability, and as much of the backstory on the PVPLC as I could find.

Needless to say, I arrived at one of the same points of discussion that you just pointed out. Not only are we facing the standard hikers vs. bikers type of discrimination; we are also battling a socioeconomic issue that has been around the South Bay for as long as I can remember. Many folks on the hill, don't want "lowlanders" coming up there. I hate to tell them, but my tax dollars in one shape or another helped fund some of the NCCP grant that they leveraged to make the whole venture viable. You can bet I'll be tending to my interests on this one.

The other point that makes the whole, "more of them will come and increase the impact" argument kind of silly is the established fact that the human impact on natural habitats is curvilinear. The first encounter between humans (be they on bikes, foot, or horses) is far more damaging to the evnrionment than the subsequent encounters.

Again, thanks for the bullets(discussion points). You can be sure that we'll be locked and loaded come tomorrow evening.


Dave,
I'd love to go for a ride before the meeting, but I'm still on the DL for a couple more weeks, and Em won't be home until 5:30 anyhow. Hopefully you'll make it and maybe we can grab a bite on the way home.

Chris

[jonkranked]

Originally Posted by Sharky

I was looking for an address for the meeting. I believe this is correct?

This Tues. 10-30-07 at 7 pm .
Rancho Palos Verdes City Hall , Community Room
30940 Hawthorne Blvd.
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA 90275

Can anyone confirm if this is correct? I need to know so I can make it! I am 100% there.

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by jonkranked

Can anyone confirm if this is correct? I need to know so I can make it! I am 100% there.

As per the email I got from the RPV list server this morning...
As a reminder, the PUMP Committee meeting will take place today, Tuesday, October 30th at 7:00 pm at the City Hall Community Room located at 30940 Hawthorne Blvd.

The following is the posted meeting agenda:
PUBLIC USE MASTER PLAN COMMITTEE AGENDA TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2007 AT 7:00 PM RANCHO PALOS VERDES CITY HALL COMMUNITY ROOM 30940 HAWTHORNE BLVD.
1. CALL TO ORDER
2. ROLL CALL
3. ADOPT DRAFT OCTOBER 3, 2007 AND OCTOBER 17, 2007 MINUTES
4. CONTINUED BUSINESS
a. Review and Approve the Trail Names and Trail Uses for the Three Sisters ER. b. Affirm the Final Draft Trails Network Plan c. Select a Meeting Date to Receive Public Input on the Final Draft Trails Network Plan
5. NEW BUSINESS a. Introduction to Uses within the Preserve.
6. PUBLIC COMMENTS FOR ITEMS NOT ON THE AGENDA
7. ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
8. ADJOURNMENT Next meeting is Wednesday, November 14, 2007 Inquiries should be directed to Ara Mihranian at 310-544-5228 or via email at aram@rpv.com.

So yeah, I'd say it's correct. BTW, kinda odd that number 5 comes after number 4 considering you'd think one would determine the uses before deciding on the trail locations and uses.

See ya there,
Chris

[spookydave]

Originally Posted by Stray_Bullit

I wish I could but my wife would get mad if I left my two little ones at home alone while I went riding! Sounds tempting though... I want to go (to the meeting) but I have two kids, a 3 year old and 22 months. If I bring them, it may just be for a moment. They can be quite a distraction!

I just want to hit the good stuff once more before it gets closed off. Sorry for the doom and gloom but at best I can see some trail closed signs.

Might not happen though as one of my dogs just had a surgrey and the wife is working late. So I might have to stay home and take care of the pooch.

[bananaseat]

Originally Posted by Flat Broke

The following is the posted meeting agenda:
PUBLIC USE MASTER PLAN COMMITTEE AGENDA TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2007 AT 7:00 PM RANCHO PALOS VERDES CITY HALL COMMUNITY ROOM 30940 HAWTHORNE BLVD.
1. CALL TO ORDER
2. ROLL CALL
3. ADOPT DRAFT OCTOBER 3, 2007 AND OCTOBER 17, 2007 MINUTES
4. CONTINUED BUSINESS
a. Review and Approve the Trail Names and Trail Uses for the Three Sisters ER. b. Affirm the Final Draft Trails Network Plan c. Select a Meeting Date to Receive Public Input on the Final Draft Trails Network Plan
5. NEW BUSINESS a. Introduction to Uses within the Preserve.
6. PUBLIC COMMENTS FOR ITEMS NOT ON THE AGENDA
7. ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
8. ADJOURNMENT Next meeting is Wednesday, November 14, 2007 Inquiries should be directed to Ara Mihranian at 310-544-5228 or via email at aram@rpv.com.

Per #6, my interpretation is that we will not have an opportunity to voice our opinions on our topic of concern??? Therefore, what's our role tonight? I'm attending regardless, but since I don't live in the area, haven't followed the issue until it was posted on STR, and don't ride there very often I need some guidance.

I've read the threads and understand the issues, but if you (locales/"in-the-know") think it would be helpful to provide script or guidance on speaking points please do so.

See ya tonight.

[Sharky]

It would be good if you could introduce yourselves to Troy Braswell with CORBA (tall grey haired with glasses) sorry but will be my first time meeting him so only have a description and ask him what role he'd like us to take tonight. Most important is the interest we're portraying from the bikers just by our attendance. I believe they will be submitting a minority report with a proposal tonight so would be good to let him know we're there and let him give us direction. Unfortunately Kevin DDB@OCR has been sick all week and his apologies he won't be able to attend tonight. I'm hoping people will at some point be able to address our issue openly in the past when the hikers have stood up to express their "opinions" there have been very few bikers there to counteract with their own facts/thoughts.
See you there hope to get a good turnout.
-Chris

[Flat Broke]

Banaseat,

I think item number 6 is actually meant to convey that there will be an opportunity to discuss items that were not on the printed agenda. As opposed to not being able to discuss the items on the agenda

As far as guidance, I'm in the same boat, and I gotta say that the CORBA folks don't make it easy. I put together an email last night requesting some guidance, input on the standard decorum for these meetings and input on the speaking points I was concerned with. All in all, a typically verbose peice. After hammering it out, and pressing send, I saw a bounce back in my inbox this morning because they have aol.com as a blacklisted domain on their spam filter. Any idea how many people they don't hear from because they can't get an email to them through AOL. I'll post my letter to them in my next post as I have to get it remotely because I'm away from my home office.

If any of the CORBA folks are reading it, just make your remarks in this thread as there are obviously others that are looking for similar guidance.

Specific to Bananaseat and Guero, I'm going to be leaving from the LBC around 6. I'm in California heights and am more than happy to drive if you guys want to carpool. I'd meet in downtown, but would have to drive as I'm not going to pay for parking to ride with someone else.

Thanks and see everyone there tonight,
Chris

[Flat Broke]

As indicated in the above post (will probably get auto merged) here is my attempted correspondence to the CORBA folks for input on tonights meeting. If anyone from CORBA can provide insight prior to the meeting on theese speaking points, it would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for the length of the text, but I'm a firm believer in "coming correct" when you speak in public.

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]To whom it may concern:[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I was recently made aware of the urgent situation with regard to cyclists being denied access at Portuguese Bend. I will be in attendance tomorrow evening and would like to present abstracts from studies regarding trail usage and the relative environmental impact of bikers vs. hikers vs. equestrians to the PUMP committee, but am unsure of the method that should be used to accomplish this. I’m not a CORBA member yet, so I’m also not intimately familiar with the nuances and history between the PUMP committee and the MTB community. The last thing I want to do is waste valuable time at a meeting rehashing issues that may have already been addressed, so I’m hoping that I can get some guidance from your organization as to which of the following issues have been addressed/resolved, and which may be sore spots that require extra sensitivity.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Item number one would be to assert and provide reference material that supports the claim that Mountain Bikers may not cause any more damage to a trail or habitat than hikers, and in some instances may actually be less intrusive. I have supporting documentation and can print copies (I believe there are 12 members on the committee) to present.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]The second issue would be that while ignorance is no excuse, adequate signage has not been provided as per the Sub Area Plan. As such, revoking access for trespasses committed upon non-delineated boundaries is not only unfair, but seems to cater to the whim of one user group over another. By deferring to the lack of signage etc, I feel we as a community can successfully argue for a clean slate and clemency of sorts for previous infractions. People can’t obey rules they don’t know exist. This would also have the added bonus of creating a driver to nail down the trail map so that appropriate signage can be put in place. Until the appropriate trail markers are put in place, it is unreasonable to assume any user of the preserve would know which trails are designated for specific activities; let alone whether or not they were utilizing an “illegal” trail. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]The next point would be to question the sources that have determined that the trails that have been widened and habitat that has been compromised can be solely attributed to use by Mountain Bikers. I know of the issue with man made stunts, and I’m not going to deny the issue. In the absence of factual data and a study by a professional in the appropriate field of expertise; any accusation levied against our community is just conjecture, and not suitable as cause for exclusion from use of the preserve. NCCP grants and other state and federal funding is a substantial monetary aspect of RPV's ability to purchase additional parcels to add to the reserve etc. Discriminatory practices against a group without adequate scientific data to support the decision could be used in our favor if we could generate an outcry to the CA dept of fish and game. If the preserve is being handled in a fashion that is inconsistent with how it was submitted for NCCP grant funding; it is possible that future funding could be withheld under the Bond Accountability program. Essentially if a project wasn’t implemented consistent to how it was proposed in the front-end criteria process, wasn’t consistent with all legal requirements, or failed to achieve the intended outcomes, payment of the grant could be withheld. I’d hate to even bring this up in the meeting, but it is something we as a community need to be aware of. Bikers are named as a user group in the sub area plan, and our exclusion could be considered discriminatory which would fall under the legality aspect of the bond accountability review process.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]The last point that I may want to ask the PUMP committee for clarification on stems from a long standing socioeconomic issue with regard to citizens of the Palos Verdes Peninsula. There has been talk that mentioning the MTB issue on internet message boards is casting us in an unfavorable light with the RPV City Council and members of the PUMP committee. The reason cited was because exposure to the Portuguese Bend location on the internet is increasing traffic through the preserve, furthering the impact. For one, there are studies that can be used to illustrate that environmental impact is curvilinear. The first few footsteps in an area are far more disruptive than the next thousand to follow. So the argument is moot to a certain extent, but illustrates an attitude among the residents and committee members that may be the biggest issue we have to face. No one will come out and admit that in addition to not wanting Mountain Bikers at Portuguese Bend, many citizens don’t want non-residents in Portuguese Bend. I wouldn’t want to bring the issue up unless we as a group were pushed to a point where few options remained, but the state and federal grants that constitute a large portion of the funding for the PVPLC are meant for all people to enjoy the areas, not just local residents.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Hopefully I haven’t put this before you with too little time to get some guidance before the meeting. Please respond with any advice, comments, or back-story regarding any of the items I’m prepared to speak to during tomorrow night’s meeting. Additionally, I’ve been looking for guidance on proper attire. Standard convention says that if I’m appearing before City Council, or one of their sub agencies, I should wear a suit and tie. However, I noticed that the person that brought the issue to my attention mentioned, wear your CORBA shirt. Is the idea to come in shorts and a T-shirt to ask for our trail access? If your group feels that the visibility of our segment of the preserve users would be best aided by dressing as such, that’s fine. I just want to make sure I’m acting within the established decorum of the CORBA members who have been fighting the good fight on this issue.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]One last issue is the fact that you guys need to get a representative to consistently post on www.socaltrailriders.org As the name implies it’s a group of people who ride in Southern California. Many of us ride at Del Cerro, but were unaware of how dire the issue had become. There are some great people on the site (as you’ll see tomorrow), and if our little group within the community would have been made aware of the situation earlier, I’m sure you would have seen far more support from the folks that frequent the message boards on the site. Hopefully a regular presence going forward can help spur further support from other mountain bikers that are unaware of the issues surrounding Portuguese Bend.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I apologize for the exhaustive email, but if I’m going to speak on an issue that I care about, I prefer to have my ducks in a row. Again, any guidance you can give as far as topics to avoid, things that need to be stressed, etc; please feel free to let me know. Thanks in advance, and see you on the 30th.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Best regards,[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Christopher O. Lloyd[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[bananaseat]

great info.

p.s. i'll bring name tags. we can decide there if we want to use them. i'm signing out...

[Stray_Bullit]

I'm stuck at home with two rowdy kids! I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear the news!

What's up?

What happened?