PV: The axe is falling.....

[slayer]

where is PV?

[guero]

PV=Palos Verdes

[Flat Broke]

Guero and Banana Seat, I'm in LB and grew up on the So. Bay. I lost my favorite riding spot there once without a say, I'll be damned if I see another one going by the wayside without at least showing up for meetings. If you guys want to carpool from LB, I'll drive if someone wants to squeeze in the back of the WRX. Im in California Heights/Bixby Knolls, but can meet you guys anywhere.

Chris

[dirtmistress]

Originally Posted by DDB@OCR

Stray- I know of whom you speak.

But I wont post her name here. I'm in her of pics book as well.
She is a way over the top with this campaign of hate and propaganda.

I find it utterly disturbing people of this level of instability are taken even half-seriously or even given the floorspace they need to verbalize their agenda while others are forced to take it in silence.

Guess that is simply a sign of the times we live in now. Hopefully the Council will see through it all.

I agree, too bad we all can't get along.

There is another Committee meeting 10-30-07.

After that there is a Public Meeting in February.

Can't you cause her trouble? You didnt give her permission to take your picture!!

[guero]

Originally Posted by dirtmistress

Can't you cause her trouble? You didnt give her permission to take your picture!!

if that was the case, celebrities and professional athletes would be collecting photo residuals out the wazoo.

[superstock]

The PUMP committee's function is to assign trail names and user designations for the trails in the area. The final recommendations will be sent to city council for approval.

According to the city's Subplan for the area, the main goal of the reserve is to protect the native habitat and specifically protect 13 identified species. Additionally, it clearly states that passive recreation (hiking, biking and equestrian) is consistent with preserving the habitat and should be part of the plan. From what I can tell, the PUMP committee is NOT making their decisions with the overall goal in mind (federal funding was made available to purchase this land and be used along the Subplan guidelines). Instead, the anti-bikers have filled the room and angrily demanded that bikers be banned from the area and decisions are being made emotionally rather than with facts. If it could be scientifically shown that the bikers were causing irreversible damage to any of the 13 covered species, then this would be a valid argument. Instead, the anti-bikers have cited 'scarring' of the landscape and the place needs time to 'heal'. One committee member even said something to the effect that there has been so much damage that its difficult to enjoy the preserve ...

The decisions that the committee is making are very important and can potentially affect many long time users of the area. I think its reasonable for them to give meeting minutes that explain the rationale behind their decision. In particular, I like to see answers for:

1. Considering the Forrestal Reserve is by all accounts deemed a successful user area, why is the committee radically deviating from proven success?
2. If all of the displaced bikers go to the Forrestal Reserve to ride, is there any concern about overuse of this smaller area?
3. What is the rationale behind banning bikes from the fireroad (Burma road)? Can it be shown that riding a bike on a fireroad that is shared with utility vehicles put any of the 13 covered species in jeopardy?
4. Of the 3 proposals that were submitted, the biker and equestrian proposal were very close yet the hiker (SUNP) proposal was radically different and chosen. I would expect the final plan would be some mixture of the three but instead the radical proposal was accepted. Why was there no compromise?

I can't disagree that there has been new trails and some of them can be dangerous to other users. This is evident where you have tracks going straight into the road (the drop about half-way down the road, the exit of toiletbowl). There is bound to be a user conflict or accident in these area. Also, I'm all for wearing protection but I think full face helmets and body armor can intimidate some of these hikers.

Attending the next PUMP meeting is probably the most important thing any of us can do regarding keeping these trails. We also need to show the hiking community that we can be responsible users of the area. Specifically:

1. Keep speed under control, especially on the road. Always slow down for hikers. Always stop for horse and ask the owner what to do. Putting a bell on your bike can help too.
2. DON'T BUILD NEW TRAILS OR JUMPS! This is one of the biggest arguments against us. It used to be private property and a lot of us thought it was going to be developed anyways. Now its owned by the city and we are all going to have to follow rules to use it.
3. Don't wear headphones. This is a hard one for me but when I'm riding PV, I leave the iPod at home.
4. All of the wooden stunts were removed during the last trail maintenance day (I helped drag 'em out of there). I was as sad as anyone to see them go but knew that they had to. Ride a trail bike instead of a downhill bike if you can. There really isn't much here than necessitates a DH bike now that these are gone.

Participate in the next trail maintenance day. We just had one last month and it was a huge success. Almost 100 people volunteered with the majority being mountain bikers.

Keep your fingers crossed. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

S

[alank]

PV is one of my favorite places to ride, I rode there today and loved it. Hearing that some people want to restrict our use really bothers me. Is there any actual evidence to suggest that mountain biking has in any way interfered with hikers and equestrians? All the hikers there today were really cool, and I chatted with them, and there was even a family of mountain bikers with young kids hitting the jumps with their parents - a very nice environment for everyone.

As for the full face and body armor, there are some good areas to hit jumps and drops, like toilet bowl, and the area right after the drop half way down (although the drop area is somewhat dubious and a sign couldn't hurt like the ones at Fullerton Loop). These areas are completely out of the way of any hikers or equestrians, and it is pretty unlikely that any incidences could occur while jumping or hucking. However, one thing I did notice, is while I was climbing up the fireroad from the bottom, there was a guy coming down really fast on a hardtail, and he was coming right at me, and I had to move away from him rather than him take the initiative and move away from my line. Now, personally, that does not bother me, I am pretty laid back when I am on the trail and don't care about things like that, but if I was a hiker and had young kids with me, I could see them getting a little disturbed for their children's safety the way this guy was riding - which seemed like he didn't have the best control and didn't react to seeing me very quickly. I would just say, try to moderate speed when in areas where hikers could potentially be and acknowledge hikers - give them a smile and say hi so they don't feel intimidated.

I think we should vigorously oppose any type of restriction on our trail access unless some evidence can be presented that persuasively shows mountain biking being problematic in that area -- which is almost never the case unless you have riders who are not respecting basic trail etiquette. If you ask me, the horses are the ones who damage the trails the most, kicking up all of the dirt and leaving enormous prints in the singletrack, and leaving excrement all over the trail - how come they aren't having their access restricted?? How come only mountain bikers are singled out? That is total BS.

[Stray_Bullit]

Originally Posted by alank

If you ask me, the horses are the ones who damage the trails the most, kicking up all of the dirt and leaving enormous prints in the singletrack, and leaving excrement all over the trail - how come they aren't having their access restricted?? How come only mountain bikers are singled out? That is total BS.

I agree 100% but the fact is that the horsey people have money. They also have a lot of friends in places. They also LIVE there. Most of the bike riders come up the hill to ride. They don't live there.

Mountain bikers are singles out because of the "extreme" nature of it. (This is all just my opinion) "They" don't like the armour and the full face helmets. To be honest, most of the riders are rude and not polite to the locals. I've seen this myself. I always try to be polite and respectful.

I grew up in Palos Verdes and my Mother in Law still lives about 3 miles from Del Cerro. I am up there a lot and I never hear one good thing about the bike riders. All negative.

It's a very rich community and hiking and horseyback riding is an acceptable hobby; Mountain bike riding isn't.

[mottmcfly]

Originally Posted by DDB@OCR

First of all- I missed the PUMP Committee meeting last night and feel like a total jerk because of it, I failed to stay o ntop of the schedule. I'm not sure if there are any more meetings of this nature to come.

The showing of cyclists was few. The showing of hating kooks was overwhelming and they did a lot of damage.

The committee voted 8 to 4 to ban bikes from upper Portuguese Bend. If accepted by the City Council, the gate at Crenshaw will be closed to bikes.

I am urging everyone in the So. Bay to get/stay involved our all our efforts will be for not.

MTB.PV is being updated soon but there is still good info there.
http://mtbpv.org/pvtr_alerts.htm

I also urge anyone that knows a bike shop in this area to urge them to speak up as well as they have a stake in this. I ordered a new bike a while back and same has been shadowed by a large black cloud of doom and I feel pretty sick about the whole situation.

Hopefully the Council will see through the hater's agenda and recognise our efforts as Cyclists and all we have done to protect and restore this area. We are not getting the repspect or the useage rights or credit and respect we rightly deserve.

-Kevin, CORBA-PV.

Kevin,

I asked the help of STR a few weeks ago sending email to the PV committee and the overwhelming support seemed to have actually backfired. First off the committee got ticked off at receiving so many emails, also those that opposed us, used these emails to support a case that MTB people would flock from every point on the planet to PV and just destroy everything there in a matter of minute. Another member from CORBA, I think her name was Susan was directly involved in this and understands that we need a more direct and pointed response.

I realize that what is going on at PV is terrible but we need to do this the right way this time. Please reach out internally and make sure that we have learned from our lessons.

I am here for whatever you need.

Mott

[alank]

Originally Posted by Stray_Bullit

I agree 100% but the fact is that the horsey people have money. They also have a lot of friends in places. They also LIVE there. Most of the bike riders come up the hill to ride. They don't live there.

Mountain bikers are singles out because of the "extreme" nature of it. (This is all just my opinion) "They" don't like the armour and the full face helmets. To be honest, most of the riders are rude and not polite to the locals. I've seen this myself. I always try to be polite and respectful.

I grew up in Palos Verdes and my Mother in Law still lives about 3 miles from Del Cerro. I am up there a lot and I never hear one good thing about the bike riders. All negative.

It's a very rich community and hiking and horseyback riding is an acceptable hobby; Mountain bike riding isn't.

I think that trails should be available to everyone regardless of wealth, political power, or geography. If they are going to discriminate against us, that is not cool, we need to fight it. Nobody owns the trails, they are a God-given gift for everyone. Now, if there are any real problems with mountain biking that are legitimate, then we, as a community, need to be cognizant and aware of them, and do what we can to address them.

[DDB@OCR]

Originally Posted by mottmcfly

Kevin,

I asked the help of STR a few weeks ago sending email to the PV committee and the overwhelming support seemed to have actually backfired. First off the committee got ticked off at receiving so many emails, also those that opposed us, used these emails to support a case that MTB people would flock from every point on the planet to PV and just destroy everything there in a matter of minute. Another member from CORBA, I think her name was Susan was directly involved in this and understands that we need a more direct and pointed response.

I realize that what is going on at PV is terrible but we need to do this the right way this time. Please reach out internally and make sure that we have learned from our lessons.

I am here for whatever you need.

Mott

Thanks Mott. Have we met? Don't recog the same, sorry.

As I stated, page one. Don't send anymore e-mails to the City Council. And that link has been removed if I'm not mistaken. PUMP Comittee e-mails are cool to the best of my knowladge. I posted a link and there are examples for text bodies one can use for ideas. Keep it simple and to the point- everyone has a right to be there.

I'm not the final authority nor do I know of EVERYTHING that is going on. I'm just passing on some info and hoping we get a lot of bodies to show up at the next meeting.


Here's some more (debatable) info- FWIW:

http://mtbpv.org/Peninsula_News_10-02-07.htm

[DDB@OCR]

Originally Posted by dirtmistress

Can't you cause her trouble? You didnt give her permission to take your picture!!

Actually- she's gotten heat for that, or so I've heard.

Although not illegal, some do not like their pics taken for security etc, reasons, or so I've heard.

I just hope she got my good side.

[Sharky]

I'll be at the next meeting and hopefully drag along your "godson". I'm not close to the Cizzle but really LOVE that place plus my sis lives a few blocks away in Torrance. Sounds like a good showing could possibly help . So far my work scheduled for that day will allow me to go. See ya there Dr. Dirt!!

[superstock]

The problem I have is how subjective this process has been. The hikers make a proposal and cry out that 'the scars must be given time to heal'. Is that statement a fact? No, its an opinion. Its the opinion of the hikers that the trails ridden by mountain bikers have created 'scars'. The question is, do these trails (scars) have a negative impact on the habitat and the animals that live there? They have not shown this. Their claim is more about aesthetics than anything else. The trails in the area consist of only 1% of the total area of the reserve. If you add the road in, you have 3%. Looking at it from that perspective, its seems difficult to argue that the trails are taking over the reserve.

The approved proposal keeps us from entering at the top. The reasoning is that if mountain bikers are allowed in at the top, they will ride all of the closed trails anyways and not allow the trails with 'scars' to heal. Thats like saying I'm going to arrest you now because I know you're going to commit a crime in the future. If it can be shown that the trails should be closed for rehabitation, then enforcement needs to be done on those trails, not by closing the road which has always been viewed a multi-purpose. Bikers should be given the chance to stay off closed trails, not shut out of the area all together. Again, they are looking for any justification to keep us out of there all together.

Since this proposal is based upon opinion, I see it very difficult to establish any viable plan moving forward. Who is to say when the 'scars' are healed and bikers can return to the area? It serves their purpose very well, they could say the scars are indefinite ...

This is all about personal agenda. There are some hikers that don't like bikes and want the place to their selves. I rarely encounter hikers that are rude to me or give me any indication that they don't want me there. This outpouring of hate at the meetings seems to be from a small minority of hikers. Maybe others have had different experiences, but I don't know where all this negativity is coming from.

In the meantime, I have to reiterate:

1. Keep speeds under control. Always slow or stop for hikers and always stop for horses. Be courteous. I know we are all pissed right now but we can't give them ammunition.
2. DO NOT BUILD NEW TRAILS. This includes new sections of existing trails as well as the water tank area. We need to make sure the open area at the tank doesn't get any bigger.
3. Don't wear headphones. You really need to hear whats going on, plus it shows disregard for others.

We need work on the image we are portraying and show that we can be responsible users of the area.

S

[roadkillross]

i just wanna say, as my home spot, i treat it like my home. and being an eagle scout, i always do my best to keep the churro looking great. ive had rides where people in cars drove by us on the fireroad looking at us like we were enemy soldiers or something in our gear pushing up the hill. even with my friendly face smiling, helmet off, they gave us dirty looks and no regard. i always smile and talk with moms walking and give encouraging words to little kids. its sad that they would do this. what they should do is kick out the pv kids who use dc to get drunk and smoke.

[DDB@OCR]

A lot of the hate stems from 'habitat destruction'.


I may term this incorrectly but...here goes.

Per what I gathered from the Conservency:

Trails create 'corridors' for predators, thus increasing oppertunities for them to score kills....or some such.

Certain species require 'x'-amount of open space. Trails reduce this space and create 'pockets' or smaller habitats and reduce 'open space'.....as it were.

*

Guess some of them won't cross trails and so on. I dunnow.

When anti-bikers hear things like this they get enraged and go off on us.
They forget walking and EQ activites also create and share some of these 'corridors'.

This is seperate from the speeding and courtesy issues and propogation of non-native species due to transportaion of seed on 'tires and clothing'.

Bikes are getting it from many angles.

Sterilizing the hill of bikes will do little, if nothing at all.

One good rainy season also will cause most of the single-track to disapear under vegetative growth. Always has, always will.

[roadkillross]

yeah. i guess ill have to buy a horse and start up a new type of trail-running. DH EQ!!!!

[DDB@OCR]

lol