PV: The axe is falling.....

[DDB@OCR]

Troy-

Thank you.

You have accomplished what no one else could. The fruits of your tireless efforts are showing. Without you, we would have nothing and nowhere to ride. Pretty much that simple.

You have done what others could not, or would not, do.
You stayed the course, you waded through the roughest sea of B/S, hate and impossibly biased agenda's.
You never once buckled and took it all on the chin and in stride. I still don't know how you do this other than you are a much better man than I.

Thanks to Troy.
He's done more for Us than many of you know. He did it out of love and for the 'good fight', for what is Right.
This man is a Hero in my book, and a true fighter.

I am proud to call you friend.

Bless you Troy, and, thanks again.

-kevin.

[DDB@OCR]

Just a reminder!:

Riders- please stay on the BICYCLE MARKED trails only.

DO NOT ride any road-cut drops, or any un-marked or un-bicycle approved trails in the Preserve.

Please note- many are watching, anti-bikers and myself as well. (I ride with a camera now...). Some are STILL lobbying to kick us off the Hill!
We are lobbying for more trails to open....so please:

PLEASE- Play by the rules- stay on marked trails only.

PLEASE- DO NOT Huck road cuts or Poach trails.
The Hill is done with that and there is no place for it any longer- period. This goes for everyone- from rigid XC to 7" bike riders. Everyone on wheels. If you feel the urge to go big or poach- DON'T. Take it someplace else. Please.

PLEASE- THINK before you DO. If said trail in question does not have a little bicycle w/o a red line through it, it is closed to bikes. Do not ride it. The rules are posted at the gate(s)- read them. You are reposnsible for knowing them.

PLEASE- Don't go if you Don't know.

PLEASE- Slow to a crawl around hikers and STOP around horses and pass Equestrians only when given the OK.

If you have concerns or questions, call or PM me or Troy. Also- please visit the site in my sigline for more info before going out. Things change almost daily on the Hill. There are maps there as well.

I cannot stress enough how sensative this area is to cyclists.
As biased as it sounds, that is the case- we are not liked here by some.
Is it right? No.
It is how it is, and that's the bottom line. Short of turning back the clock 20 years, I don't see it changing.
But- the better we behave, the great the chances are of gaining more access!

We are in control of our future here....if you see someone doing something wrong, kindly point it out to them and remind them or let me know who they are and what they ride.
Most of you know me and my bikes so don't hesitate to stop me for any reason. I'm up there a lot during the week so....

Ride safe and play by the rules....we have been and are doing a great job so pat's on the back all 'round. Keep up the great work gang!

All my thanks,

Kevin-

[stjunkie]

Quick question for you Kevin or anyone else that knows. What is the best way to climb up from the bottom that is legal?

I did it a couple months ago and took Peppertree/Toyon/Burma and it was not easy. I was on my commuter bike with almost road tires though.

[DDB@OCR]

Toyon to Burma is the best way...it is a hike-a-bike in the last section cus it is really torn up from horses.

Do not take Scarf to Burma.

The other way is along the bottom towards Klondike, small asphalt climb past the shack then do the two small humps then down the singletrack to Burma.

[drclark]

There is a proposed "reckless trail use" ordinance going before the city council so watch you speed out there as well. Zipping down the trails, even burma fire road might get you in trouble.

Hopefully, in a couple of years, bikers will hopefully get more-equal access to the trails, but PV's days as a free-ride spot are DONE.

drc

[roach]

Originally Posted by drclark

... PV's days as a free-ride spot are DONE.

drc

Amen!
That's the silver lining.
Riding in PV may be ridiculous at the moment, but at least the hordes of Starship Troopers are no longer welcome! I'm willing to give up a few trails if it means we don't have to be subjected to the downhill goons that used to infest Del Cerro.

[deusxq]

What is the news on the proposed "fun-zone"? any word on that?

[zbrown1800]

Has anyone read what will be categorized as “reckless trail use” and how it will be enforced? My worry is that it could be highly subjective and people with the more extreme views could categorize it as anything more than a walking pace.

I’m not trying to say we should be able to fly down the hill as fast as we can go but we have to have a little room to have fun. I have to agree that the more downhill/freeriding stuff should be on trails without horses and hikers. We will have to accept that to do that kind of riding we will have to drive a little further.

It’s a bummer that we have to be so careful so we’re not seen in this negative light. We’re riding a bike for crying-out-loud. I think there are a lot worse things that people can be doing with their time.

[bikeadict]

Wow, this is quite a thread. Just from the snippets I've read, its good that there are people still fighting the good fight.

My only hope is that as more people view bikes as a means of transportation and a lifestyle that places will open off road also.

In my opinion legislating "reckless behavior" is a road to nowhere... What is reckless to someone might be perfectly safe to another. A noob going one speed down a hill is much more dangerous than an expert going twice that speed.

What has happened to our country... there is virtually no place you can go where you aren't governed by a rule telling you what you can and can not do. It is very sad... We are creating rules for the lowest common denominator...

[DDB@OCR]

Originally Posted by zbrown1800

Has anyone read what will be categorized as “reckless trail use” .

While that is being legislated, please note.

In this area- please slow to a crawl when passing hikers.

Stop around Euquestirans and pass when told to.

As far as enforcement, usually the place just gets closed down as a form of 'enforcement' when rules are not being followed and enough complaints have been logged.

As bikers- We are in direct control of our future in this area.

"TREAD lightly" as they say.

[roach]

Originally Posted by zbrown1800

Has anyone read what will be categorized as “reckless trail use” and how it will be enforced? .

I've looked into it. You will be considered "reckless" if:
1)you are witnessed skidding the rear tire more than 2feet.
2) you scare any other trail user (including mtbr's) due to your riding.
3) you are riding over 5mph anywhere in the reserve.
4) you are under 18 and riding without a helmet.
5) you are riding on any vegetation (crashing into the bushes will be considered "reckless")

Enforcement will be mostly self-policing. I've started to also carry a camera. My plan is to shout, "stop, or I'll shoot!" Once these reckless riders see my camera, I'm positive they will begin riding responsibly and apologize profusely.

[DISCO]

Hey now, some people might be riding strapped. Still MTB riders are supposed to yield to all other trail groups, regardless. Hikers and Equestrians are always shocked when I actually acknowledge them and wait for approval to proceed.

[DDB@OCR]

Just use common sense and follow the guidelines that I've noted, are posted on the gates and on the website in my sigline.

If you need more or up to the minute info, contact Troy through the mtbpv.org website.

Originally Posted by DISCO

Still MTB riders are supposed to yield to all other trail groups, regardless. Hikers and Equestrians are always shocked when I actually acknowledge them and wait for approval to proceed.

Good points and good trail etiquette.

[Rockinthecasbah]

And what are you... Jesus??? Accept there are many types of riders and just because your not into something doesnt mean it is a lesser form of riding that dosent deserve any space.

Originally Posted by roach

Amen!
That's the silver lining.
Riding in PV may be ridiculous at the moment, but at least the hordes of Starship Troopers are no longer welcome! I'm willing to give up a few trails if it means we don't have to be subjected to the downhill goons that used to infest Del Cerro.

[DDB@OCR]

Originally Posted by deusxq

What is the news on the proposed "fun-zone"? any word on that?

Please PM or email Troy at mtbpv.org, drclark etc....the legislation is/may still be ongoing with this so...

For those in the know- keep sensative ongoing legislation on the down-low unless cleared by Troy etc., please and mucho thanks.

[drclark]

From what I heard, the PUMP committee would not endorse the idea of the "bike skills area" without a proposed location. We were pushing for the endorsement of the idea with the location and implementation left up to the best discretion of the conservancy. For now, the issue has been tabled which is probably better than being killed outright.

Troy gave me the OK to post the proposed trails ordinance since it is a public document and going to be discussed and probably voted on at tomorrow's, tues 7/15/2008, city council meeting. See the attached PDF. There is a lot of background info and such but the meat of the ordinance is here:

12.16.130 Reckless Use of Trails Within the Palos Verdes Nature Preserve Prohibited

No person shall, and it shall constitute a public nuisance for, any person, including pedestrians, equestrians and bicyclists, to use any trail within the Palos Verdes Nature Preserve ("the Preserve") in a reckless manner that is likely to cause injury or harm to others.

$55.00 for the first offense
$100.00 for the second offense

$200.00 for the third offense

That is basically it. It is so vaguely worded that just about anything could be considered reckless... heck the mere presence of a mountain biker might likely cause injury or harm to others.......I have no idea how it will be enforced. It will probably be up to officer discretion as I would assume they would have to directly observe such reckless behavior (or direct results of such behavior such as scrapes & bruises on a hiker as a result of a collision).

Roach, I wish you wouldn't post inflamatory comments to this thread. While many purist XC riders may agree with your sentiments and want to place blame on DH/FR crowd for spoiling things on the hill, it does us no good as a group to splinter and start infighting. Like it or not, hikers and equestrians see anyone traveling on two wheels all the same.

I firmly believe that DH/FR riders need sanctioned places where they can enjoy their styles of riding and that there is no logical reason why PV cannot find some open space to have a funzone or skills park. It is something that I think we need to continue to work toward in addition to expanding general trail access. The flipside, is they will continue to ride there, building jumps, and cutting trails illegally and eventually get bikers kicked out for good.

drc

[DDB@OCR]

Thanks, D...

[bikeadict]

Again as I said earlier that ordinance is going nowhere.

Originally Posted by stupid rule

12.16.130 Reckless Use of Trails Within the Palos Verdes Nature Preserve Prohibited

No person shall, and it shall constitute a public nuisance for, any person, including pedestrians, equestrians and bicyclists, to use any trail within the Palos Verdes Nature Preserve ("the Preserve") in a reckless manner that is likely to cause injury or harm to others.

$55.00 for the first offense
$100.00 for the second offense

$200.00 for the third offense

By that definition if hikers are completely covering the trail, you come upon them with some speed, are forced to go off the trail to miss them and hit a tree they would be at fault?

By that wording above, this situation is perfecty possible. The hikers being pedestrians are using the trail in a mannor that caused injury to others.

Mind you cyclists have to yield to everyone but I believe it should be written down somewhere that every user has responsibilities to share the trail.

You can't legislate everything.

Every time when I'm riding and I see a hiker I slow down to a reasonable speed and go by them when the trail is wide enough.

So, it would be said that I am yielding to the pedestrian. However, If that pedestrian was one of those crazy people from the walking website and did not move over to the side of the trail so I could pass then they are acting recklessly?

Very frustrating. Oh well I'm tired its early, I don't know if this makes any sense. Hopefully they don't start doing this B.S. to any of the trails I ride on.

[drclark]

If you are riding in a manner such that you cannot stop for another person or obstacle on a trail, you will probably be considered the reckless party. If you read the background portion o