PV: The axe is falling.....

[2w4s]

http://www.bootlegcanyon.org/

http://brmba.org/

http://www.nemba.org/ridingzone/places.html

Here are a couple to get you started.

[drclark]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

Being a member of the biking community we have to accept that the "downhill goons" are our brothers and fellow riders. Those who want to ban bikes from public trails do not make any distinction between xc, dh, free-rider... they are all bikers to them. Like it or not, we are all downhill-goons in their eyes.

It is our responsibility to work with that segment of our community to educate them about trail ettiquete and minimizing habitat issues. However, we need to recognize that most youngsters and many beginners that are picking up our sport naturally gravitate toward the DH/dirt jumping aspects. Many of the bikers out there doing the jumps are neighborhood kids. Others are newbies just don't have the level of physical fitness to enjoy climibing. Many of the problems throughout the region stem from closure of other popular DH areas. The result has been increased use of multiuse-trails like mount-wilson, tunnel trail, del-cerro by DH bikers. As such, the community needs to lobby for places where DH/FR riders can ride legally where habitat and user conflict issues are minimized.

Also, XC/trail riders are not 100% innocent of the issues. There have been serveral complaints of xc riders riding on private property and through gated community at the bottom of the trail network. XC riders riding at a "moderate" pace around blind corners can just as easily spook a horse or hit a hiker. Many committee members feel that bikes should not be allowed to go more that 5 mph anywhere on the trail network. Some committee members view an xc bike coming down grand canyon/slow-or-die not appropriate for the area. Some committee members have the opinion that there needs to be ped-horse only trails simply because there are a supposedly alot of horse people who won't ride any trails where there might be a bicycle citing safety issues arising from difference in speed issues. Face it, unless you are willing to ride your bike no faster than a walking pace at all times you are also part of the problem.

Lastly, the political strength needed to win this trail fight and future trail fights will depend on numbers; numbers of people willing to attend public meetings, volunteer for trail work, donate time and $$, etc. If we fragment as a community we will certainly fail. We need to keep the "downhill goon" segment constructively engaged in the process. Failing to do so could be much more damaging to our cause than the creation of new trails and jumps. Selling out the "dh goons" will only encourage them to continue constructing and riding illegal trails causing more problems for all of us in the future.

That all being said, there are one or two individuals I have met while riding del cerro that are probably "poison pills" to our cause. We need to figure out how to either get these people onboard or not ride there anymore.

drc

(xc rider, trail rider, dirt jumper, and downhill goon)

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by 2w4s

So you think the answer is to not have an area set aside for technical riding, too?

No, a separate technical riding area would be ideal. But in the real world, ideal solutions are extremely rare. The odds of that happening on public land in this specific area are very very low IMHO. So, making that a baseline assumption or requirement for MTB trail advocacy here is foolish. Plan for the "most likely" outcome, which in this case is no separate tech riding area.

Do you also think that 'downhill goons' rarely care about trail politics?

Yes, in my view downhill goons don't care a rats a** about trail politics and access issues. Hence the term goon. Not all DH riders are goons, however. Only a minority fall into the goon category. But this minority has and will continue to do major damage to MTB trail access in areas that are not compatible with DH riding. I don't consider these riders to be "brothers" or any other nonsense term you care to use. They are my enemy because they are givng MTB riders a bad name and are getting me and others kicked off the trail network.

Have you ever been to an area set aside for downhilling and seen the behind the scenes politics and the resulting good that's been done? I can supply you with several links if you'd like so you can educate yourself.

Yes. Separate designated areas for DH and FR riding are an excellent idea. This sort of riding is fun and there is clearly rider demand for these areas. But as we've seen in this case, not all areas are compatible with this sort of riding.

See above in bold.

[2w4s]

No, a separate technical riding area would be ideal. But in the real world, ideal solutions are extremely rare. The odds of that happening on public land in this specific area are very very low IMHO. So, making that a baseline assumption or requirement for MTB trail advocacy here is foolish. Plan for the "most likely" outcome, which in this case is no separate tech riding area.

So, you'd abandon a plan that could be very equitable to all user groups because you don't think it will be a 'most likely' outcome? You know there are several technical riding areas popping up on public land in California, why could it not happen here? I guess that's why I haven't involved myself with any trail advocacy groups in SoCal because of your 'Me before Us' philosophy.

Yes, in my view downhill goons don't care a rats a** about trail politics and access issues. Hence the term goon. Not all DH riders are goons, however. Only a minority fall into the goon category. But this minority has and will continue to do major damage to MTB trail access in areas that are not compatible with DH riding. I don't consider these riders to be "brothers" or any other nonsense term you care to use. They are my enemy because they are givng MTB riders a bad name and are getting me and others kicked off the trail network.

Based on your assumption then we should also close public parks to XC riders because I had to tell several XC riders that Aliso Woods Park was closed 12 hours after it had stopped raining, I didn't see anybody on big bikes trying to ride. At best, every user group could be charged for their apathy, not just downhillers. What percentage of any user group involves itself with trail issues? A very small proportion.

Yes. Separate designated areas for DH and FR riding are an excellent idea. This sort of riding is fun and there is clearly rider demand for these areas. But as we've seen in this case, not all areas are compatible with this sort of riding.

At least we can agree on one thing. Maybe you should click on the links I provided you to see how other areas found equitable solutions to their trail issues and get back to me. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind as you seem hell bent on charging one user group with all user groups shortcomings and issues but maybe you can realize that 'if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.'

BTW, anytime you'd like to go for a long xc grind, shoot me a PM as I'd love to meet you.

Brian (xc rider, dirt jumper, downhiller, urban and park rider)

[jonkranked]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

This is easily one of the most biased and spite-filled statements I have ever read.

You talk about downhillers like we are some sort of "disease" that needs a cure. The only thing I can think of that needs a cure is negative attitudes and assumptions such as this.

Fact of the matter is, downhilling and freeriding are growing sports. The industry is reflecting this in the fact that even the major companies are now offering dh and freeride bikes.

As a downhiller, I do feel that there is irresponsible behavior that goes on in regards to trail building, trail access, and environmental concerns from the DH/FR community. There are 2 reasons for this:
1) lack of knowledge on how to build trails and features that are environmentally friendly and in a location where it will not interfere with other use groups, which leads to point...
2) lack of anywhere to legally build such trails features. If there is nowhere for them to build legally, then they resort to building illegally. This brings about the "I don't care about what happens to the trails or anyone else" selfish attitude. These rogue trail builders know that ultimately whatever they construct is going to be destroyed / torn down, so they don't give 2 sh*ts about who they piss off along the way.

This is not speculation. Having ridden in MANY places across America for both downhill and freeride, I have witnessed both of these scenarios FIRSTHAND. This being said...

[SIZE=3]IGNORING THE PROBLEM WILL NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY.

[SIZE=2]This is something that must be dealt with, whether you like it or not, or (dis)agree with what events have transpired. These riders won't just "go away".

Pointing fingers at videos made by legitimate film makers on legitimate trails isn't getting anything accomplished.

I for one am totally in favor of developing an specific area for these kinds of riding. I'd much rather see today's youths outside, doing a physical activity than sitting inside playing video games, surfing the internet, or worse things (illegal drugs, etc).
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
And for the record, on the occasions I do take my DH bike to del Cerro, I DO ride it up Burma Road. It's a great workout!


Sincerely,
Darth Vader.



PS I think Boba Fett will be chiming in shortly.

[jonkranked]

Originally Posted by EMrider

I'm a fellow MTB rider and feel that roach is 100% right. The delivery was a bit rough, but the basic facts are correct.
R

So by your logic, just because people hate something they feel they have the right to try and wipe it off the face of the earth? Check out the early 1940's, Hitler sure did a good job of that, right?


I hate Ugg boots, but they're still around. And I have much better things to do with my time then campaign against somebody else's choice in footwear.

[Stray_Bullit]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

Nothing to see here folks, please keep moving...

~cough~ Eva ~cough~

To quote Rodney King- "can't we all just get along?"

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by jonkranked

I hate Ugg boots, but they're still around. And I have much better things to do with my time then campaign against somebody else's choice in footwear.

Do you categorically hate them, or are certain applications okay? I love mine in the dunes (warm and no sand in my shoes like what would happen if I wore my vans). Then there is the ol' standby... they look good on a naked woman But I'm with ya if you're talking about guys wearing them around town with jeans. Or girls who are doing the whole 80s colored jeans with matching uggs; or the currently fashionable 80s leggings/long shirt dress thingie with matching Uggs.

Hows that for a thread jack

Seriously folks, Doug hit the nail on the head with regard to the PUMP Committee members and PVPLC board members that make no distinction between XC/FR/DH/newbs out for a cruise. They want us all gone. No good can come of turning on each other, when odds are a lot of the people that have been labeled as goons or perceived as not caring about the habitat, just haven't been educated on the issue.

The important thing is that we stand as a united community against those that seek to expunge us from the trails we ride; and that we educate our fellow bikers about the issues at hand and how to coexist in the evironment over the long term.

With regard to people's negative beliefs about a dedicated technical area, here are some facts.
1 - It is proposed on land that is outside the nature preserve
2 - It has the support, at least in concept, of enough PUMP committee members to win a majority vote with a quorum.
3 - There are members of the City Council that aren't opposed to the idea.

With those points in mind, I don't know why people would throw in the towel on the idea. As I've gone through life, I've found that having a negative attitude about a subject typically feeds a self fufilling prophecy type scenario. If you don't believe in something, you wont support it, and therefore it is likely to fail. This is especially true if you campaign against it. For those of you that aren't against a technical riding area, but are against the negative aspects of technical riding at Del Cerro; you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by supporting the idea of this dedicated area. It gives a constructive outlet to those who's actions you admonish, and at the same time brings them into the fold so they can be educated. There aren't many negatives associated with the idea.

Anyhow, let's try and keep this thread on track with regard to discussing the ongoing processes of the PUMP Committee and the PVPLC, and how we as a biking community need to represent ourselves at these meetings to ensure we have access to these trails.

Chris

[jonkranked]

Originally Posted by Flat Broke

Do you categorically hate them, or are certain applications okay? I love mine in the dunes (warm and no sand in my shoes like what would happen if I wore my vans). Then there is the ol' standby... they look good on a naked woman But I'm with ya if you're talking about guys wearing them around town with jeans. Or girls who are doing the whole 80s colored jeans with matching uggs; or the currently fashionable 80s leggings/long shirt dress thingie with matching Uggs.

sorry, but as soon as I see uggs, your face automatically turns into that of a troll in my mind. LOL!

Originally Posted by Flat Broke

The important thing is that we stand as a united community against those that seek to expunge us from the trails we ride; and that we educate our fellow bikers about the issues at hand and how to coexist in the evironment over the long term.

This point is absolutely critical, and the opposition to cycling seems to be resorting to "divide and conquer" tactics. The cycling opponents have realized that we are very persistent, and can't outright defeat us. They have and/or will resort to trying to get us to bicker amongst ourselves so that we lose our focus on the big picture.

That being said, I feel it is highly crucial that we, within the mountain bike community, present a unified front as to what we feel is best for all cyclists who intend to use this land area.

We need to explore all contingencies, including that of a freeride/technical/aggressive/downhill designated area. They needn't worry about who will build it; if they provide an area where this style of building can be done, I'll build it by myself if I have to. I have the tools and the know-how.

[roach]

I was afraid someone wouldn’t get the joke. Yes, I have seen the area proposed for the “free-riding [cringe] area”. It’s a joke. It’s way too small, hard to get to, and since when isn’t there “habitat” there? A free-ride area right above the beach? The only steep terrain there leads right to the beach. Please, it’s time to put the pipe down for a bit.

The old “fun zone” at the end of Hawthorne was developed by the City before Robbie Bourdon and Richie Sheley became the idols of the current endless travel set. I used to ride the fun zone all the time, everybody was riding hardtails. The fun zone was a different era, but arguing about why we have this current problem is purely academic.

The point is; we need to hide (or at least not advertise) this embarrassing segment of the MTB community. Yes, they are kinda like that embarrassing brother/sister who looks like a dork and is always acting inappropriately. We shouldn’t be at these meetings (yeah, I went to one, took all night) advocating action-figure downhilling in a nature preserve. You can’t really call the double crown crew “mountain bikers”, but that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge their existence. Let’s just call them “special needs” mountain bikers. Their numbers aren’t likely to diminish any time soon, there’s too much video coming out of Radical Films and Freeride Entertainment. Plus, Redbull and Monster Energy drinks are still flying off the shelves.

My proposal for Burma Road was a joke (if you thought I was serious, maybe you should pick UP the pipe). Although, maybe it has merit, looks like some guys are feeling threatened already. I can hear the goons now…“Pedal my bike! No way bro! I don’t even know how to raise my saddle!”

Technical riding is different for everyone. My wife thinks descending Burma Road is technical. Some people think the slalom course is technical, whatever. The idea that you need a special, designated area to ride “technical” is silly. The existing network has challenges for all levels (yeah, even you Mr. Hardcore). That’s why we should stay focused on keeping all the existing trails multi-use and don’t mention we have “special needs”. Currently, the future looks grim. My favorite trail at Del Cerro is already practically closed. Doesn’t matter anyway, I’m nobody.

As much as I like to humor myself with the idea of riding down to this hypothetical freak-show playpen and watching a bunch of babies bounce around on their V-10s, it’s not good advocacy.

Freeriding is neither Free nor Riding.

[jonkranked]

Originally Posted by roach

[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]The point is; we need to hide (or at least not advertise) this embarrassing segment of the MTB community. Yes, they are kinda like that embarrassing brother/sister who looks like a dork and is always acting inappropriately. We shouldn’t be at these meetings (yeah, I went to one, took all night) advocating action-figure downhilling in a nature preserve. You can’t really call the double crown crew “mountain bikers”, but that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge their existence. Let’s just call them “special needs” mountain bikers. Their numbers aren’t likely to diminish any time soon, there’s too much video coming out of Radical Films and Freeride Entertainment. Plus, Redbull and Monster Energy drinks are still flying off the shelves. [/SIZE][/FONT]

If this is really your attitude, maybe we should just hide you.


In case your reading skills have failed you, I'll repeat...

[SIZE=5]ignoring the problem won't make it go away. [/SIZE]

[2w4s]

Originally Posted by roach

blah, blah, blah, blah, random drivel, blah, blah, blah, random drivel, blah, blah, blah.

your ideas have interested me greatly and I wish to subscribe to your newletter. Should I send you my credit card number or would you like to meet in person? Do I have to buy my own sweatsuit or are they provided? I like grape kool-aid.

p.s. your trollability needs some work, dude/dudette.

[DownhillWebKook]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

Hey, when my collarbone heals I'll meet you out there with my DH bike and race you up the road.

Your post here is so ludicrous that I can't tell if you're joking or not. I think it's totally fun to rattle the cage a bit, but your commentary is absurd and overtly rude and misguided.

I'm on the mend right now, but if you want to go "coasting" with me sometime thereafter I would be more than happy to meet up with you.

All of that is, of course, beside the point...which is keeping this trail alive. Your divisive comments don't help in the least and speak little to your understanding of politics as you seem to know little on the matters of decorum or diplomacy.

[Stray_Bullit]

Originally Posted by roach

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I was afraid someone wouldn’t get the joke.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I am going to make my mother proud. She always told me "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." So I am going to honor her for now. However, if I see you in person it will be very, very tough to honor her. In fact, I know I won't.

Is there an "ignore" feature or option on this board? If so, I have now found my first candidate!

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by 2w4s

No, a separate technical riding area would be ideal. But in the real world, ideal solutions are extremely rare. The odds of that happening on public land in this specific area are very very low IMHO. So, making that a baseline assumption or requirement for MTB trail advocacy here is foolish. Plan for the "most likely" outcome, which in this case is no separate tech riding area.

So, you'd abandon a plan that could be very equitable to all user groups because you don't think it will be a 'most likely' outcome? You know there are several technical riding areas popping up on public land in California, why could it not happen here? I guess that's why I haven't involved myself with any trail advocacy groups in SoCal because of your 'Me before Us' philosophy"

I prefer the term "realistic" instead of "me before us". It is certainly worth proposing the creation of a tech riding area to the land management authorities. But you'd better have a backup proposal too that does not involve one. I feel the odds are very slim in this case because it is an urban multi-use area with regular hiker/horse traffic. City liability issues are another major barrier too. My best guess is that a "reasonable" compromise for PV would involve having some trails designated hiker or horse only, but having a majority remain open for multi-use and no area for DH/FR riding. But.....with a clear message to the MTB riders that future access is contingent on abuses being stopped. In other words, if MTB riders can't keep the bad apples under control, we will all be kicked out. A trail patrol or some other monitoring arrangement would probably be helpful.

Yes, in my view downhill goons don't care a rats a** about trail politics and access issues. Hence the term goon. Not all DH riders are goons, however. Only a minority fall into the goon category. But this minority has and will continue to do major damage to MTB trail access in areas that are not compatible with DH riding. I don't consider these riders to be "brothers" or any other nonsense term you care to use. They are my enemy because they are givng MTB riders a bad name and are getting me and others kicked off the trail network.

Based on your assumption then we should also close public parks to XC riders because I had to tell several XC riders that Aliso Woods Park was closed 12 hours after it had stopped raining, I didn't see anybody on big bikes trying to ride. At best, every user group could be charged for their apathy, not just downhillers. What percentage of any user group involves itself with trail issues? A very small proportion.

A "goon" is one who knowingly and habitually breaks the rules. So there are goons in ALL riding categories and a one-off violation due to ignorance is not grounds for being shut-out. It is grounds, however, for a ticket. In this case, it is DH goons that are creating a major problem for others. Some riders may not like to hear that fact, but the truth won't change to suit them. Several committe members and other trails users have made this statement almot verbatim. IMHO, these goons need to be thrown out and the penalties for violating the rules should be harsh. I've been involved in trail access groups for years and have decided that a zero tolerance policy for goons is the only way forward.

Yes. Separate designated areas for DH and FR riding are an excellent idea. This sort of riding is fun and there is clearly rider demand for these areas. But as we've seen in this case, not all areas are compatible with this sort of riding.

At least we can agree on one thing. Maybe you should click on the links I provided you to see how other areas found equitable solutions to their trail issues and get back to me. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind as you seem hell bent on charging one user group with all user groups shortcomings and issues but maybe you can realize that 'if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.'

BTW, anytime you'd like to go for a long xc grind, shoot me a PM as I'd love to meet you.

Brian (xc rider, dirt jumper, downhiller, urban and park rider)

It would be impossible to know enough to assert that DH goons are responsible for ALL the abuses in PV (or anywhere else). That would be almost impossible. But in this specific case, they are an obvious and high profile "problem" for other trail users and the land management authorities. You can't be agnostic about everything and to make decisions we are required to make judgments. My judgment is that DH goons are a small share of the MTB rider base who are causing a large share of the area's problems.

And I'd like to join you for a ride too. At my fitness level a long ride is 4-5 hours, not an all day epic.

Switched to red.