PV: The axe is falling.....

[Nagaredama]

Originally Posted by drclark

I think there is an exception that you essentially waive your right to privacy when out in public place. There is nothing to stop me from taking a picture at the beach with you in the background. However, If I were to try to sell that picture commercially, I would have to get you to sign a release.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I've heard it described. Would love to hear someone who is well versed in this type of law to chime in.

Besides, most of the damage is already done as our favorite committee member has a binder full of photos already.

drc

You are correct. While out in public you have no reasonable expectation of privacy whether committing a crime or not. Exactly why the press can hound Brittney and every other celebrity on the planet.

If someone at PV wants to take your picture there isn't much you can do about it.

[dirtmistress]

Originally Posted by drclark

I think there is an exception that you essentially waive your right to privacy when out in public place. There is nothing to stop me from taking a picture at the beach with you in the background. However, If I were to try to sell that picture commercially, I would have to get you to sign a release.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I've heard it described. Would love to hear someone who is well versed in this type of law to chime in.

Besides, most of the damage is already done as our favorite committee member has a binder full of photos already.

drc

I have heard that the celeb's are public figures and therefore really have no say. On the other hand, years ago, I was with a friend who's photo was taken and she demanded the camera, got it and tore out the film. So you would all be wise to look into this further. If she is taking your photo without your permission, I would think you have a a legal say in that!

[Nagaredama]

Originally Posted by dirtmistress

I have heard that the celeb's are public figures and therefore really have no say. On the other hand, years ago, I was with a friend who's photo was taken and she demanded the camera, got it and tore out the film. So you would all be wise to look into this further. If she is taking your photo without your permission, I would think you have a a legal say in that!

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Key paragraph

Members of the public have a very
limited scope of privacy rights when
they are in public places. Basically,
anyone can be photographed without
their consent except when they have
secluded themselves in places where
they have a reasonable expectation of
privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms,
medical facilities, and inside
their homes.

[jonkranked]

word up. thanks for doing the homework for me.

[dirtmistress]

Originally Posted by Nagaredama

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Key paragraph

Members of the public have a very
limited scope of privacy rights when
they are in public places. Basically,
anyone can be photographed without
their consent except when they have
secluded themselves in places where
they have a reasonable expectation of
privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms,
medical facilities, and inside
their homes.

That's really too bad. I wonder if a sharp lawyer could argue that. We should all be allowed to be in a public place without some wahoo taking our photo!

[ssisyphus]

Maybe begging, pleading, for our trails is the wrong tactic. Perhaps offering examples of other communities with open space and multi-use trail systems that work and have been working for years is the way to approach this issue.

If the planning commission and the PVPLC can be open minded and approach the project like creative intelligent people they may be able to create something that will serve as model of multi use harmony and habitat restoration and preservation that will bring accolades instead of scorn.


The current process is shaking out the extremists and their desperation to entirely close the area to cyclists is apparent. The statements and the demands they have made towards the city show their lack of interest in public use and the input of outsiders who are not part of their narrow view for the future of the area.

The extremist are reactionaries they have no vision for true multi-use. They are not worth our time.

We need to continue to look like the reasonable, concerned people we are and stay away worthless arguments and focus on offering constructive ideas and examples how multi-use can work and is working elsewhere.

Our cause may be saved at the professional level with the planning commission where the kudos from the public and professional peer groups matter most.

Also consider that if we take a wider view maybe some of the old trails should abandoned and new more interesting trails that fit the landscape better can be added. It has been done elsewhere. Why Not?

It's gonna take some effort --(I owe everyone who has been at this a big thank you!)

Count me in!

See You There! Jim

[Nagaredama]

Originally Posted by dirtmistress

That's really too bad. I wonder if a sharp lawyer could argue that. We should all be allowed to be in a public place without some wahoo taking our photo!

Our country wouldn't be the same place if we weren't free to take all the photos we wanted or write about anything we so please without having to worry about the subject of the photos or written piece stopping us.

[Flat Broke]

ssisyphus,

You are 100% correct. I'd love to use other NCCPs as examples; doing so would deffinitely support the multiuse effort. Unfortunately, the fanatical members of the PUMP believe that the unique nature of the area, equates to unique management practices. You're right in the fact that if we can get to the general public via the City Council; perhaps some of the influence obtained through donations to the conservancy that is enjoyed by certain zealots can be mitigated.

On a separate and joking note, should we all bring cameras and incessantly shoot (non flash) photos of Eva scorning, rolling her eyes, etc? Then when she asks why it's being done, we can tell her we're just documenting her behaviors so those that don't believe the serverity of the situation can understand. I'd love to further it by asking how it made her feel, then follow with the notion that her surveilance of the area has made it less enjoyable for bicyclists. Then point out the similarities between that argument and the one she repeatedly makes about bikes ruining enjoyment of the area by other users with their mere presence. Being responsible sucks, cause it would be really fun to get 10-15 people with cameras just photo-hounding her from the moment she pulls into the parking lot.

See Everyone tonight,
Chris

[Sharky]

Good one ...actually my plan was to lock her in my trunk before the meeting? I like mine better ...
See ya tonight. Ricky (Rockinthecasbah),Andrew aka Deusxq, Ride Hard, MP_Freshhh and another STR member were there yesterday trails almost empty but interesting the range in attitude. One hiker wouldn't even look at us when we gave a friendly greeting on the fireroad where all others were very warm and would chat. On my way now to get beef jerkey and RockStar...bet it's gonna be a lonnnnng night. The sunset was gorgeous BTW check out the avi. I had to go back with a flashlight to find my glasses I left down below and THANKS to the biker that helped bitchin out there at night found the glasses YEA.

[ssisyphus]

Influence through donations?

I hold a major trump card.

My old climbing partner is Linden Robertson his family donated the Linden Chandler Preserve land.

And

I am employed by Robert Stein who donated the George F canyon land. I see him daily.

Both may be willing to provide some "influence".

I'll play this card if needed through the Daily Breeze.

[drclark]

I'll post in more detail tomorrow morning but the short story is that we got paintbrush as multi use and ishabashi is ped-horse only. Lemonade Berry trail was eliminated all together.

Also, the temporary closures to ALL users approved by the city council are expected to go into effect next week. Signs will be posted and we MUST respect those signs if we are to have a chance of maintaining access to the area. Right now it is not clear what trails or areas will be closed. Apparently the city staff and conservancy staff will be doing a survey and then recomending areas to be closed. What is not clear at this point is when the closures would be lifted. We hope its with approval of the final PUMP plan but there are no guarantees.

The city has set a date of 2/23/08 for the public workshop (9:30 AM til whenever) where the general public will have comments on the final plan. The city council will have the final say on the plan and could very possibly choose to reject the PUMP plan all together. So nothing's over til the proverbial fat lady sings.

Adding the updated map:


Later,
drc

[ssisyphus]

An interesting developement. At last nights meeting one of the equestrian advocates told me that PVPLC director Barbara Dye has resigned. No other details were known and I have not checked this out yet.

Hmmmm?

[wanhand]

Lemme know what I can do to help. I'm 5-6 miles away from this location and I use to ride my bike there 4-5 years ago.

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by wanhand

Lemme know what I can do to help. I'm 5-6 miles away from this location and I use to ride my bike there 4-5 years ago.

The next PUMP Committee meeting is set for December 12th. Basically, the best thing you can do is show up and voice your opinion on the remaining trails as motions are brought to either allow or disallow bike access. If you have friends or neighbors that also ride, you should definitely have them attend as well. Dont forget that even if your neighbors don't use the area their children might, and someone needs to speak up for them.

A small group of people, some with very disturbing prejudices are trying to strip access to bikes under a number of different and falsely supported pretenses ranging from safety to habitat preservation.

After the meeting on December 12th, there will likely be another PUMP Committee meeting sometime in January. Additionally, the Rancho Palos Verdes City Council will be holding a public workshop on February 23rd at 9:30am to get general public input on uses in the preserve.

Thanks,
Chris

[roach]

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

[Flat Broke]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

It's a public message board, and you're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else, but I'd like to point something out to you. If you are arguing that most of the lines used by big bikes today existed before their introduction to Del Cerro, you might want to think about how the drought and increased traffic due to the closure of the area at the end of Hawthorne which used to accomodate a large portion of the biking in the area have affected the trails at Del Cerro.

Additionally, if you would read through this entire thread, you would see that the technical riding area is being proposed for a portion of land that no one rides at Del Cerro because it's on the seaward side of PV Drive South. The idea for this area is to pull the attention of the bikers you seem to have a problem with out of Del Cerro propper and give them an area to ride with no sensitive habitat. With that in mind, do you still want everyone to drop the issue? Because if we do, and the PVPLC adopts a largely multiuse trail system, you'll continue to see big bikes out on the trails. But like all users, they should stay on the trails.

Speaking of trails, many of the lines you are probably familiar with and possibly currently enjoy will be closed all together. No big bikes, no little bikes, no hikers, no horses. It seems like you have strong opinions, perhaps you could channel some of that energy in constructive manner and give your input at the PUMP Committee meetings, and the public workshop on 2/23.

The last point I want to make is that your blanket descrimination against people who may push parts of Burma Road is as obtuse and ignorant as the hiker contingent arguing that all bikes should be kept out of the preserve because of problems assosicated with a very small portion of the general biking public. There are plenty of reasons for people to push Burma Road. Kids, out of shape people, people on big bikes, people who just want to push and BS with their buddies, etc. Your assumption that because they are pushing, they are causing problems is pretty flawed. Under your recommendation, children who couldn't get up the hill under pedal power wouldn't be able to enjoy the preserve. Out of shape people who are out there getting some exercise, shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the area. Competent bikers who may want to chit chat with friends they don't get to see except for their rides at Del Cerro shouldn't be allowed to do so. And of course, the guys that have a 1x9 setup and don't have the legs for it, shouldn't be there. Out of curiosity, if someone was on a 6" all mountain bike with dual rings, had ridden all day and was just tired and wanted to walk it, should they be excluded from using the area in the future?

There are large and vehement groups of ignorant people discriminating against all bike usage in the area. Their arguments are based in lies and fabricated personal accounts. On multiple occaisions they have come far to close to limiting our use exclusively to Burma Road. Do we really need to be fighting amongst ourselves and looking to remove access from fellow bikers when there are so many other people who are already too successful at removing access for all bikers?

We need to stand together as a community against a some pretty flawed and blatantly discriminatory arguments. I understand your frustration with some of the problems that are associated with big bikes. But those issues are going to come into control under management anyhow. Don't descriminate against someone because of the rig they ride. That's just as bad as discriminating because they ride in the first place. By the way, I enjoy lift serviced riding, and generally only pedal or push the ups, to get to the downs. I guess I'm a good portion "downhill goon" and I genuinely care about trail politics. Be careful with the labels you apply to people and the assumptions you make based upon what kind of rig someone pedals.

Chris

[2w4s]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

How about making a time limit to climb Burma rd. too? Like if you can't do it in under 10 minutes your not allowed to ride any trails. That makes as much sense as abandoning a technical riding area.

Kudos to you for propagating a stereotype instead of educating the Red bull addicted downhill goons.

Hmmm, roach has been a member since June and this is his/hers first post. I smell a troll!

[shagginwagon]

Originally Posted by roach

Please dump the "Technical Free-ride Area" proposal. For the past 4-5yrs, Del Cerro has become increasingly infested with bloated bikes being coasted-on by ego-pumped tools fueled on the latest NWD video. This type of activity should'nt be publicly advocated. Downhill goons rarely care about trail politics.

Before the infestation, Del Cerro had (almost) all the lines it does today, but they were bushy and obscure. Thanks to Red Bull, Kranked, and NWD, now all the lines are wide open and critically visible (espicially to the few trail nazis who love to hate).

So how about this proposal: If you can't pedal your bike up Burma Road, you're not allowed in with your bike. That should weed out at least some of the problem.

Ya know , the more I read this , the more I start to wonder if this isn't some sorta bait from the head trail nazi herself or one of her "cronies"? The darth vader reference and the blatant hatred of DHr's leads me to this conclusion . Maybe trying to start some infighting , to try and take some focus off the main objective ? It's truely sad if I'm wrong , and this was written by a fellow mtb'r .
Sincerly ,
Your friendly neighborhood ego-pumped tool