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Schecky

MTBers were one of the first groups working to restore the park after the fire, yet Ranger Maureen doesn't hesitate to contribute to a biased article:

Article - Sports - Four-legged firefighters

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Kid A

Face it no matter what good deeds are done we are the black sheep in many eyes. Glad i also snowboard so at least I can be hated on the snow as well.

Per article...Beckmann, mounted on a Morgan-Quarter horse cross named Charro,

Attached Images

charo2.JPG (45.7 KB, 1 views)

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"I AM NOT LOUD! I'm exuberant."

Winston

From the article - "(Mountain biking) can really beat up the hills," Beckmann said. "We didn't want it to look like a motocross."

You should see what a ranger with a bobcat can do.

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Kid A

can you say Cholla

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"I AM NOT LOUD! I'm exuberant."

Winston

Barham Ridge

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"optimal would of course be cyborg chicks, but then civilization would fail to exist since no dudes would get married (not joking here!!)" -dft

~ Pakiha ~

is it just me, or did the report that dstepper quoted made the point that HORSES made the most trail damage, especially after rain or fire?? Ironic, don't you think.

Remove not the mote from my eye when thou hast a beam in thine.

especially when we go all out on notifying on communities like these to stay off, and actually get results.

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dhshuttlemonkey

It's a losing battle.

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JamR

Biking still has a long way to go to repair the less-than-desirable image, but we're just not strong enough as a group to actually stay focused long enough to get anything done.

Case in point.....three years ago mountain bikers made a good showing a one Trail meeting at Santiago Oaks, but since then, biking has only been represented by 1 or 2 bikers.

Also the parks do have a verified history of bikers vandalizing signs they don't agree with, and have tons of evidence from these types of boards about riders going where they are not supposed to...ie, the current post about the night ride at the end of June. Unless they plan on riding only the streets from the Albertsons Parking lot: all of the close-by areas, ie...Irvine Park, Santiago Oaks, Peters Canyon are closed at dusk, and the Irvine Ranch Spaces are open by Docent led tours.

Only one rider posted anything serious about the legality of the ride, but the post just goes on with a cavalier attitude.

The Rangers do support mountain biking and work with the biking groups, but they do not have an obligation to look the other way when some bikers take advantage of the areas. I've been in the burn area quite a bit surveying the areas for restoration, and there is clearly a ton of bike tracks using currently closed trails, and creating new lines in areas that are scheduled to be restored or have already been seeded; in addition to also being in a closed area.

It's still a relatively small group of riders that cause the problems for the group as a whole, but part of the problem is that many riders who know the people that are causing the damage, just sit by and do nothing.

The warnings have been out there for years now, so it's just a matter of time before people start receiving citations and trails get closed; and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

It's kind of a ridiculous time for bikers to be adding to problems when there's so much progress being made locally for new trails and better access.

There are so many places to ride in O.C. there's simply no reason to ride any of these closed trails. Give Santiago Oaks and rest and let the Rangers get the trails back in place.

Show up to some of the meetings where you can make a difference, or don't complain about the issues.

Just some thoughts


See ya on the Trails

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See ya on the trails

~ Pakiha ~

I think part of the issure is the active bikers out there,(at least the vast majority on this forum) are young and working when those meetings are called. Myself for instance would find it very difficult to make a formal meeting after work and leave my wife to handle the kids. Maybe if the rangers had a forum of there own like this, they'd get a better audience by releasing the time constraints.

Some of you know where I work now and I have not been able to find an easy to understand and reliable map that states what trails are allowed, and which are not, for each park. I want to do this so that everyone that buys a bike from us can be given either a booklet or web address that has the rules and regs plainly stated. That possibly that individual may even become an active voice in preservation & restoration.

I don't know how many read the Post I made about the Fullerton loop, but enough waves were made to have either the city, or the owner, not only pack down and do their best to repair and preserve the trail behind their home but also the home next door (yell thank you on your next pass, the lady gets a BIG grin when you do and waves)

I think the inaccessibility of information and a lack of fluid communication is the problem not our attention spans.

JamR & OMR if you do work for the forestry service please email me I'd like to get something like this going. Heck maybe we could get Gonz to open an Access and Preservation Forum Managed by Forestry Service Personnel and concerned retailers.

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JamR

I agree with your comments and with the time constraints we all have, but getting involved and making a difference takes time and commitment.

Everyone has a voice but so few choose to use it. Just about every city has the same criteria where any member of the public can stand up at city council meeting and get their three minutes to bring issues to the table, which then become engrained into the minutes and become public record.

The same goes for the County Board of Supervisors meetings, and the County Trails Committee meetings.

I do get frustrated when I see the lack of commitment on the part of bikers to get involved, but then sit back and cast bullets at the Rangers and Land Managers.

Think about it.........how many posts have you seen this year about regular group night rides? How many riders find time to get together for after work parties or show up in mass to bike film debuts at local bars?

Where are these riders when their presence is really needed....at the trail meetings, at the RMP public meetings, at the city council meetings, at the B.O.S. meetings?

If someone can find the time to ride after work and party after work; they can find the time to hit 4 to 6 meetings per year to actually make a difference.

IMO, if you're not willing to put in the time, then you have not earned the right to complain.

We live in a great community where there is a ton of mountain biking opportunities, with more trails being planned than being closed.

Riders who simply can't give the Oaks a rest and keep riding the area are not helping our sport. If we need to be angry at someone, be angry at the riders who are trespassing out there.....not at the ranger for simply stating the obvious.

As far as consistent trail maps, it would definitely be nice to have no inconsistencies (because there are a few in some places); but each park typically has their own trail maps that show the authorized trails and is usually the best source.

The basic rule to keep safe is that only trails that are shown on the land manager’s map and are signed should be ridden. Trails not on the manager’s maps should not be accessed. Also the basic common sense rules about not going past closed area/no trespassing signs, climbing over fences or gates, or going past trail entrances that have clearly been brushed over in an effort to close them.

The problem with a single compilation trail map or book is that trails periodically change. Some get closed, others opened, some seasonally altered, etc... so without consulting the individual manager’s maps; these compilation maps and books become outdated and lead to problems.

The Orange County Mountain Bike book is a perfect example showing many of the unauthorized trails in Aliso-Woods. Written at a time when the rules and understandings were much looser, but not changing when the park became more established.

Franko's maps is one good source because he does currently work very closely with the land managers to try to make sure that the trails are accurate.

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See ya on the trails

gurp13

JamR, I agree in principle with almost everything you've written there. But, I have to say that it's just not fair because they never talk about closing trails because there were footprints where they weren't supposed to be. They never talk about banning horses if they find too many hoofprints or somethings.

It's *always* the evil mountain bikers. And they rarely, if ever, make a distinction that some bikers might be doing the wrong thing but that most are not.

From the article:

Keeping the land clear of damaging influence extends beyond non-native plants. Beckman and Coonradt stop to observe a closed trail pocked by recent mountain bike tracks.
"(Mountain biking) can really beat up the hills," Beckmann said. "We didn't want it to look like a motocross."
On Monday rangers discovered two signs indicating a closed trail had been vandalized – torn down and replaced with carefully-stenciled imposters that described the trail as open.
"We think it was mountain bikers," Beckman said.
The park service is now considering closing the trail permanently.
"You abuse it, you lose it," Beckman said.
"The majority of those people have been pretty good," Coonradt noted. "There are going to be those people who do not want to cooperate. We try to talk to them and give them a flyer."

The majority of those people have been pretty good, huh? But, you're still closing the trail. And you're still blaming them in the newspaper without actual evidence. And you're still going to mention mountain biking as damaging the trails above all other activities? Nice.

I work more than 50 hours a week, have four children, don't ride Santiago Oaks and certainly obey all trail closings. I retain my right to complain as a taxpayer and a citizen. The only "ride" I get after work is my commute home. I recognize that you are very involved but you have to realize that in EVERY thing it's always a very small percentage of people that are very commited. Every organization of any sort I've ever been involved with has trouble mobilizing people. Ever do AYSO soccer?

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roadkillross

Mountain biking) can really beat up the hills," Beckmann said. "We didn't want it to look like a motocross."

make it like a motocross......what... how ignant

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mechmann

to be honest...

you have to be self employed to be as big of an activist as what the sport needs. the horse floggers with all their money can afford to spend their time and money to get what they want from the government. this is why we rely on contributions to IMBA and other local advocacy groups. if these groups are failing, you can't reasonably expect all the hard working little bees to bail out of their responsibilities and show up to some stupid meeting.

a good example is the night that allison and i bailed out on our lives for a night and drove up to Idyllwild for a meeting with the rangers. the meeting essentially bought nothing for the riders. it was a waste of time and money to go. the government agencies are going to do as they will. slowly all the places that used to be used, for whatever purpose, will either be built upon or taken away leaving only very limited access for "extreme and dangerous" activities like mountain biking. by the way, those limited access areas will also be dumbed down so that a triple wide stroller loaded with children can also traverse the "trail".

JamR

It's not always bikers being blamed, it's just that you don't always see the day to day interactions between the managers and the other groups, but in too many cases the bikers are the dominant factor and get labeled as a whole.

We are currently experiencing the same local issues as other areas with adjacent home owners creating foot paths from their neighborhoods, a few equestrians coming into the area, geocachers making dozens of short trail off-shoots looking for caches, running groups setting up organized unauthorized runs, and hiking groups setting up unauthorized organized hikes. You just don’t hear about our meetings with the geocaching groups, running groups, hiking groups or equestrians that take place regularly to discuss these issues; but you do hear about the biker issues because this is a biker forum. So the appearance is that bikers are being singled out.

Unfortunately in the area I work, the verified numbers speak for themselves. On a certain single-track section over a 35 day period....11 unauthorized hikers/runners, 0 unauthorized equestrians, and 182 unauthorized bikers.

When land managers sit down to make decisions and have to report to the managing agencies...DFG, Fish and Wildlife, etc... for trail approvals; and are faced with the real numbers of the various user groups; and have to deal with duplicity of trails created by the number of unauthorized trails that make it difficult to get new trails opened legally; sometimes it's a very frustrating position to be in.

I'm a serious mountain biker, but I have the unfortunate position of having to deal with the real numbers of mountain biking trespassers when reporting to the managing agencies. We do annual reporting to the agencies that includes the amounts of legal managed access programs, and the unauthorized access derived from numerous methods.

Mountain bikers aren't specifically singled out intentionally except that locally the numbers are up there. Again as I've stated many times...just sit at the bottom of an unauthorized trail like NBTD on a weekend morning, and count the number of rider’s vs other users. It's just a local fact that might have serious long-term consequences for bikers if we don't get ourselves under control.

Also, a lot of riders tend to rag on equestrians and comment about their political power, etc... But think about it. Equestrians have lost more ground locally than mountain bikers could imagine. Because of the sheer numbers of riders in Aliso-Woods, Laguna Coast, El Moro and many other parks; they have been pretty much been all but run out of these parks. I can typically count the number of equestrians I encounter in these parks annually on one hand.

They have lost numerous stables locally, and are currently fighting tough battles to keep some of the long-time historical stables that are threatened to be closed.

It's no wonder that they are so sensitive about bikers in one of the last few areas they have for some true trail riding.

They have very few options compared to us, so we need to have a little more consideration for them.

All the user groups have their own access issues, and all have their problem people.

Again, a big frustration for me is the basic complacency of too many riders. If you know people who ride non-authorized trails and say nothing; you are part of the problem.

Reading the article in question, it seemed that the person who took the time to vandalize the park sign and make their own open area sign may just have been the final straw for the ranger that could get the trail closed permanently for all.

My issue is that someone knows the person who did this and is too weak to turn them in; and likewise the person who did this is too weak to come forward to the ranger, fess-up and offer to make it right by paying for a new sign. Their selfish action may have just affected the rest of us for a long time.

It's the weak individuals who cannot think beyond their own self-gratification about the bigger picture that ruin it for the rest of us. And the individuals who know of these actions and sit idly by and do nothing are just a guilty.

It may certainly be inconvenient to get involved, but lack of involvement may have consequences that we may not like in the future.

You don't have to commit to a ton of time to get involved.....just get involved in any way you can, even if it's simply to start putting pressure on riders you know who are trespassing where they should not be. Every little bit helps.

There's no room for complacency when there are real threats of trail losses due to the actions of a few.

Just get involved.
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You don't have to be wealthy or retired to get involved...you just need to be committed. We all make choices in life and for the most part we choose our lifestyles. Many people I know in the equestrian community work very full-time professional careers; have familes to raise; houses to maintain; etc... but have taken the time to attend every single trail meeting for the past 3 years. One person I know has only missed a couple of meetings in close to 2 decades.

If you spend a couple of hours a month on these boards, you can afford the time to e-mail the land managers and the powers-to-be. No one is too busy to get involved in some manner.

Again....attend a meeting, make a phone call, shoot out an e-mail once a month to the managers, chastize a friend for breaking the rule, or simply think twice about riding that non-authorized trail. Getting involved in at least some manner is really very simple.

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See ya on the trails

gurp13

Thank you, JamR, for your very thoughtful and thorough response. Sincerely. I appreciate it and it's given me a lot to think about.

I guess, as you say, I *am* already involved in that I don't knowingly ride unauthorized trails and I certainly don't encourage it. Living in the IE, I don't ride that many OC trails to begin with. So, a lot of this is new to me. That's why I appreciate the very detailed response.

You make a very interesting point that since this is a biking forum that I'm more likely to hear that point of view. That makes sense and I didn't think about that.

Thanks again!

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OMR

These are my words: I hate to say this but Jammer is right and it's pretty indicative of our society today. There will always be a few hard core that step up to the plate and decide to participate in the process... while the vast majority will sit on the side lines and make comments, e. g. how many people actually voted in the last election vs the number of registered voters. And so it is with our tribe.

Right now they are putting together a Resource Management Plan (RMP) for Aliso Woods. This plan determines the number of trails that are open, to be opened or to be closed... something we as mountain biking are vitaly interested in. To date there has been limited participation by the MTB community at large. Only a few members of local MTB clubs have attended the meetings and have been actively trying to particpate and influenece the direction of this plan. I do understand how busy everyone is, that family and business commitments abound and that few will sacrifice their riding time in order to assure areas continue to remain open. I wish this wasn't so... but that's reality.

The other problem that Adam addresses is there will always be a small minority that will not follow the rules (Oh my God! Did he say rules???) Yes, unfortunately we do need rules or we have anarchy. Because our sport has become so popular, we now have hundreds of bikers riding on any given weekend where there use to be ten. The impact can be hugel...especially in an area that has been burned and needs to be restored by nature and man.

I am however encouraged by comments that I read here from other mountain bikers. As others have pointed out, 98% of the bikers out there are responsible riders trying to do the right thing. It shows from the comments in this forum. But we've become the Silent Majority, while the other 2% gets the spotlight... and decissions are made from reaction to their activities. I wish it was as simple as "take a land manager to lunch" but it isn't. Change in a political system is always a slow process, but possible and in our case, necessary.

As one pointed out, we can use this board/forum to inform others of meetings, trail work, planning commissions, etc. in the hope that this will awake in riders the willingness to get involved and demonstrate to others the passion we feel for this sport that we so love. That one thing binds us all together: our passion for mountain biking. We are a tribe and this board proves that every day.

That is my heart...

OMR

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