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Pain Freak · 02-19-2007, 07:41 PM

What constitutes trail maintenance or sanitation?

What might be impossible for some riders could be nothing for some others, so who makes that detirmenation?

Having been involved in many trail maintenance projects I've found that what we may regard as sanitation May not necessarily be the case. Over just one season of rainfall the trails can change dramatically. What was once a buffed rock free path can turn into a rock garden that only a few may be capable of cleaning. I myself do appreciate the difficult lines as most of us do. It feels great to overcome an obstacle that has been giving you fits for a long time.

I'm sure almost everyone has altered a trail in some way or another to be able to make it "easier" to get through. There are all kinds of trails out there to ride and if you think one or another is to mild, go look for another, you'll eventually find it. Trail maintenance is going to be arbituary to say the least, so if you come across something that others are able to clean, but you may not be able to, just walk it, or keep trying. There are exceptions of course and I think we all know what would not be rideable no matter who you were.

For some reason I can't quite seem to get over those fallen 4 foot diameter trees.

gurp13 · 02-19-2007, 09:15 PM

That's a good question. Personally, I think it's all trail maintenance. And, I think that Los Pinos and Bell Ridge could use some serious work. W. Horsethief needs some leveling as well. If we cut an extra switchback or two it would be a lot better.

Hmmm, now you've got me thinking. What if we got some asphalt out there...?

Pain Freak · 02-20-2007, 06:22 AM

Obviously you are looking to start a fight!!!

tkblazer · 02-20-2007, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurp13

Hmmm, now you've got me thinking. What if we got some asphalt out there...?

dang roadies

gurp13 · 02-20-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pain Freak

Obviously you are looking to start a fight!!!

Not really,

I just thought I'd be the devil's advocate.

But, honestly, I have thought to myself from time to time, "Does this trail really have to be this hard? Are we having fun?!" Sometimes I've wanted to just have a buff singletrack that gently undulates through a cool glade. Who ordered all of these freaking babyheads in the first place? But, I guess I wouldn't fix the trail for me because I know there's people who enjoy the challenge.

It's a good question, though. One person's trail damage is another person's technical section. Speaking of that Bell Ridge trail, it was a really fun trail. However, that pushabike up the side of the hill after 15 miles was totally uncalled for.

I mean, that's just abusive! There's hard and then there's just stupid. It seems to me that if you can't find *anyone* who can ride it, or maybe 9 of 10 can't then it might need some work.

Chopper · 02-20-2007, 01:03 PM

The difference between sanitizing a trail and doing trail maintenance has to do with why you are working on the trail at all. The purpose of trail maintenance should not be to make the trail safe or easy to ride, it should be to make the trail sustainable so that it will be there the next time you go out to ride.
I could expand on that but I think that pretty much says it.

gurp13 · 02-20-2007, 07:51 PM

That's an interesting take. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. Seems like there's more to it than simple intent.

Collette · 02-20-2007, 08:18 PM

If an object small enough to be tossed aside by hand is causing problems for a bike with 26"/29" wheels and up to 6 inches of suspension, well then.........

TURNERob · 02-20-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat

If an object small enough to be tossed aside by hand is causing problems for a bike with 26"/29" wheels and up to 6 inches of suspension, well then.........

I'll go ahead and finish that sentance......."you SUCK!"

guero · 02-20-2007, 09:54 PM

i think choppers brief definition nailed it. we had a prime example of what appeared to be a mild case of trail sanitation in another thread. i called out the action by the ride reports given and i got flamed by the sanitizers for it. if the rocks were "just pebbles" then they shouldn't have been an issue. heck, i even got called out to a "hucking contest" or a "hill climb" contest. i'm not sure what that has to do with trail sanitation???. i know that section of trail very well that they were describing and it is full of acorns, twigs, small rocks, and large rocks. in my opinion moving rocks to make a line easier is sanitation.

PacMan · 02-20-2007, 10:37 PM

Like was mentioned before, I think maintenance is an act done for the good of the trail, meaning for the upkeep or preservation of it. Anything else is sanitation. Moving a rock because it's in your way is sanitation.

A few months ago, I got tossed pretty hard by one loose babyhead rock on a particularly gnarly section of DH trail by my house. I picked myself up off the ground and found the rock responsible and heaved it into the bushes in a fit of anger/frustration/I was friggin pissed.

It was still technically sanitation.

kentonn · 02-20-2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guero

i think choppers brief definition nailed it. we had a prime example of what appeared to be a mild case of trail sanitation in another thread. i called out the action by the ride reports given and i got flamed by the sanitizers for it. if the rocks were "just pebbles" then they shouldn't have been an issue. heck, i even got called out to a "hucking contest" or a "hill climb" contest. i'm not sure what that has to do with trail sanitation???. i know that section of trail very well that they were describing and it is full of acorns, twigs, small rocks, and large rocks. in my opinion moving rocks to make a line easier is sanitation.

What thread?

dstepper · 02-20-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentonn

What thread?

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...-jim-loop.html

andy aka rut · 02-20-2007, 11:09 PM

I agree with Chopper. Good description. In the "other" thread.... "someone" moved a couple of objects to make it down the chute. Having ridden that section a few times myself, I don't think any of the rocks, twigs, acorns or dirt that can actually be moved is what makes that particular section difficult. What makes it difficult are the bone breaking rocks that sneak up on you like bungie sticks. Personally, I don't really consider what was done as sanitation. If the offending person brought out a rake and some cement bags, well then, that would be a different story. just my 2 cents

LBmtb · 02-20-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guero

heck, i even got called out to a "hucking contest" or a "hill climb" contest. i'm not sure what that has to do with trail sanitation???.

That probably had more to do with you throwing around personal attacks then talking about trail sanitation.

Keith B · 02-20-2007, 11:27 PM

OK now I've got my chance to put in my thoughts - hikers walking on trails and rain do alot more than move a few pebbles. During the incident in question we moved a handful of pebbles whilst walking the line we were going to ride. As an engineer I'd go as far as saying this actually reduced the grip level in the soft sand. We did it for psychological reasons.
And as for calling me a pussy, you've never met me - I'd like to see you try and ride that drop.

guero · 02-20-2007, 11:27 PM

i've done the drop keith, sans moving rocks.

kentonn · 02-20-2007, 11:47 PM

You know, I love my trails rugged, rocky, rutted, and loose. These type of trails scream "leave me alone" and are best ridden 'as-is'. There are however other trails that are about speed, momentum and flow. If I was to maintain this type of trail, I may consider moving some rocks to open up a line or to clear a landing.

Imagine a twisty single-track trail that is about nothing but speed and flow. Half way through the trail, there is a high banking turn with a nice jump on the exit. What would you do if you couldn't hit it because all of your speed is lost on a bunch of 'outta-place' rocks? You want to know what I would do? I'd leave them where they sit because I am way to lazy to pick up rocks. Seriously, it really depends on the trail and maybe even the section. Nobel starts of with a lot of flow then turns to chunk. I know that I'd be pissed if someone cleaned it up.

The problem will always be interpretation. One rider's San Juan is another rider's Tunnel. Given that, maintenance should probably be limited to clearing brush and keeping the trail from completely washing away. If you feel that you must move rocks, please follow these two, simple guidelines:

If the name of the trail is 5th Avenue, it is okay to move rocks.
If the name of the trail is Gnarly Rock Garden, leave the damn rocks right where they sit.

Chopper · 02-21-2007, 06:05 AM

Obstacles are kind of a tricky issue. If there is an obstacle in the trail and riders are creating a cheater line around it, that widens the trail. If the cheater line can't be blocked for some reason, you have to decide what's best for the trail, remove the obstacle and preserve the narrow nature of the trail or leave the obstacle in place to preserve the challenging nature of the trail.
A good example is the Rattlesnake trail in El Moro. Riders were creating a huge cheater line along the side of the rocky section. The trail was getting wide enough drive a Winnebagel down it. In addition the cheater line kept rutting out so it kept getting wider and wider. Last year, to preserve the challenging nature of the trail we blocked the cheater line with boulders to force riders to use the challenging side of the trail.
Rule of thumb in most cases, riders should change their skills to match the trail, not change the trail to match their skills.

02-19-2007, 07:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Pain Freak Peanut butta jelly	Sanitation or Maintenance? What constitutes trail maintenance or sanitation? What might be impossible for some riders could be nothing for some others, so who makes that detirmenation? Having been involved in many trail maintenance projects I've found that what we may regard as sanitation May not necessarily be the case. Over just one season of rainfall the trails can change dramatically. What was once a buffed rock free path can turn into a rock garden that only a few may be capable of cleaning. I myself do appreciate the difficult lines as most of us do. It feels great to overcome an obstacle that has been giving you fits for a long time. I'm sure almost everyone has altered a trail in some way or another to be able to make it "easier" to get through. There are all kinds of trails out there to ride and if you think one or another is to mild, go look for another, you'll eventually find it. Trail maintenance is going to be arbituary to say the least, so if you come across something that others are able to clean, but you may not be able to, just walk it, or keep trying. There are exceptions of course and I think we all know what would not be rideable no matter who you were. For some reason I can't quite seem to get over those fallen 4 foot diameter trees. __________________ If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? “Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body—but rather a skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, ‘Wow, what a ride!’ ” —anon.

02-19-2007, 09:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
gurp13 SolarFederationMember	That's a good question. Personally, I think it's all trail maintenance. And, I think that Los Pinos and Bell Ridge could use some serious work. W. Horsethief needs some leveling as well. If we cut an extra switchback or two it would be a lot better. Hmmm, now you've got me thinking. What if we got some asphalt out there...? __________________ I may be a loser, but I'm not a quitter.

02-20-2007, 06:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
Pain Freak Peanut butta jelly	Obviously you are looking to start a fight!!! __________________ If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? “Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body—but rather a skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, ‘Wow, what a ride!’ ” —anon.

02-20-2007, 07:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
gurp13 SolarFederationMember	That's an interesting take. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. Seems like there's more to it than simple intent. __________________ I may be a loser, but I'm not a quitter.

02-20-2007, 10:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
PacMan Yeti. Turner. Niner.	Like was mentioned before, I think maintenance is an act done for the good of the trail, meaning for the upkeep or preservation of it. Anything else is sanitation. Moving a rock because it's in your way is sanitation. A few months ago, I got tossed pretty hard by one loose babyhead rock on a particularly gnarly section of DH trail by my house. I picked myself up off the ground and found the rock responsible and heaved it into the bushes in a fit of anger/frustration/I was friggin pissed. It was still technically sanitation. __________________ Less typing...more riding.

02-20-2007, 01:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Chopper The Ancient One	The difference between sanitizing a trail and doing trail maintenance has to do with why you are working on the trail at all. The purpose of trail maintenance should not be to make the trail safe or easy to ride, it should be to make the trail sustainable so that it will be there the next time you go out to ride. I could expand on that but I think that pretty much says it.

02-20-2007, 08:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
Collette Member	If an object small enough to be tossed aside by hand is causing problems for a bike with 26"/29" wheels and up to 6 inches of suspension, well then.........

02-20-2007, 09:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
guero dont be selfish!	i think choppers brief definition nailed it. we had a prime example of what appeared to be a mild case of trail sanitation in another thread. i called out the action by the ride reports given and i got flamed by the sanitizers for it. if the rocks were "just pebbles" then they shouldn't have been an issue. heck, i even got called out to a "hucking contest" or a "hill climb" contest. i'm not sure what that has to do with trail sanitation???. i know that section of trail very well that they were describing and it is full of acorns, twigs, small rocks, and large rocks. in my opinion moving rocks to make a line easier is sanitation.

02-20-2007, 11:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
andy aka rut STR Veteran	I agree with Chopper. Good description. In the "other" thread.... "someone" moved a couple of objects to make it down the chute. Having ridden that section a few times myself, I don't think any of the rocks, twigs, acorns or dirt that can actually be moved is what makes that particular section difficult. What makes it difficult are the bone breaking rocks that sneak up on you like bungie sticks. Personally, I don't really consider what was done as sanitation. If the offending person brought out a rake and some cement bags, well then, that would be a different story. just my 2 cents __________________ Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

02-20-2007, 11:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
Keith B Professional Lion Tamer	OK now I've got my chance to put in my thoughts - hikers walking on trails and rain do alot more than move a few pebbles. During the incident in question we moved a handful of pebbles whilst walking the line we were going to ride. As an engineer I'd go as far as saying this actually reduced the grip level in the soft sand. We did it for psychological reasons. And as for calling me a pussy, you've never met me - I'd like to see you try and ride that drop. __________________ "I once met three guys named pain, suffering and sacrifice. Now, we're inseperable. We're best friends"

02-20-2007, 11:27 PM	#17 (permalink)
guero dont be selfish!	i've done the drop keith, sans moving rocks.

02-20-2007, 11:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
kentonn Thread Derailer	You know, I love my trails rugged, rocky, rutted, and loose. These type of trails scream "leave me alone" and are best ridden 'as-is'. There are however other trails that are about speed, momentum and flow. If I was to maintain this type of trail, I may consider moving some rocks to open up a line or to clear a landing. Imagine a twisty single-track trail that is about nothing but speed and flow. Half way through the trail, there is a high banking turn with a nice jump on the exit. What would you do if you couldn't hit it because all of your speed is lost on a bunch of 'outta-place' rocks? You want to know what I would do? I'd leave them where they sit because I am way to lazy to pick up rocks. Seriously, it really depends on the trail and maybe even the section. Nobel starts of with a lot of flow then turns to chunk. I know that I'd be pissed if someone cleaned it up. The problem will always be interpretation. One rider's San Juan is another rider's Tunnel. Given that, maintenance should probably be limited to clearing brush and keeping the trail from completely washing away. If you feel that you must move rocks, please follow these two, simple guidelines: If the name of the trail is 5th Avenue, it is okay to move rocks. If the name of the trail is Gnarly Rock Garden, leave the damn rocks right where they sit.

02-21-2007, 06:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
Chopper The Ancient One	Obstacles are kind of a tricky issue. If there is an obstacle in the trail and riders are creating a cheater line around it, that widens the trail. If the cheater line can't be blocked for some reason, you have to decide what's best for the trail, remove the obstacle and preserve the narrow nature of the trail or leave the obstacle in place to preserve the challenging nature of the trail. A good example is the Rattlesnake trail in El Moro. Riders were creating a huge cheater line along the side of the rocky section. The trail was getting wide enough drive a Winnebagel down it. In addition the cheater line kept rutting out so it kept getting wider and wider. Last year, to preserve the challenging nature of the trail we blocked the cheater line with boulders to force riders to use the challenging side of the trail. Rule of thumb in most cases, riders should change their skills to match the trail, not change the trail to match their skills.

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