Trail issues.

[CPATCRASH]

[quote=andy aka rut;49686]

Originally Posted by JamR

Just put the blame where it is due....on the bikers.

JamR-
The way I read that statement sounds like you are blaming all the bikers. I know that isn't the case, but that is how it sounds to me.

What about some of the new trails (illegal, I know) in El Moro. I know it isn't your area, but I know the rangers know about the trails yet there are still stunts on them; bridges and such. The rangers are not removing them. This gives the perception to the people who have been riding these trails that it is OK to ride them. If the authorities know about them, they need to remove the trails. I just can't believe they "don't have time to do it." If it is that important, they need to make the time.
Personally, I know a person can get a $551 ticket for riding a bike in a county park after dark. What kinda of punishment can be handed out to people for building an illegal trail? Is it jail time? $100? Maybe if people knew it was $1500 and 100 hours of community service they might think twice before doing something like that.

Jamr, as the land manager of the area, can you organize a "trail clean up" on the illegal trails? Can I help you with this? If we can agree on a date, I will post it on several boards and maybe we can help resolve the issue. When a trail "pops up" again, you let me know and I can get a posse together to make it natural again. How does that sound?
PM and I'll get you me email (if you already don't have it.)

If you need help getting this together let me know. That's it...

[JamR]

Just a quick (or not-so-quick) follow up so people can understand the reasoning behind the delay in bringing new single-track into the system due to these new illegal re-cuts.

It's not a unique policy, and is mirrored in the current draft of the Aliso-Woods RMP.

These areas and ecological systems are looked at closely by the ecologists and biologists which is a requirement of the NCCP that we are signatory to.

Trails for passive recreation are allowed, therefore the areas are looked at closely and determinations are made as to the appropriate number of trails that will allow an amount of recreation that is not overly detrimental to the habitat. Basically every area has a limit or carrying capacity for recreation.

It's a pretty basic policy under a best management practices set of standards that in these types of areas, new trails that will be added to the system are typically not implemented until trails that are not part of the system are closed and restored. This method assures the least amount of disruption to the area.

In this case I was just about to implement an approved single-track that is highly desired by the users, but one of the newly re-cut unauthorized trails is within eye-shot of our new trail; and to now open the City of Irvine Trail before these two illegal trails are closed and the trespassing of riders looking for the new secret trails subsides would constitute irresponsible management of the area on my part.

I have a contractual obligation to take care of the area adjacent to Laguna Coast Wilderness Park, and it would be irresponsible for me to open a new trail that will simply invite increased trespassing deeper into the City property. Once the recently created problems are fixed, I will get back to the task of implementing our approved trails…..not before then.

The Aliso Woods RMP has the exact same policy written in. They have surveyed all of the currently unauthorized trails in their area, and the trails are listed by name in two separate columns. One column lists the trails proposed for inclusion into the system, the other lists the trails that are deemed to be permanently closed, restored and monitored.

There is a catch however written into the RMP that puts the timing of the new trails heavily into the public's lap.

The new trails will not be implemented until the other trails are successfully closed and restored. So the bottom line is that the responsible riders who want to be able to ride Car Wreck, Nestalls, and the other proposed legal trails will simply have to wait until the rouge riders and hikers stop maintaining and using the other trails.

This was not a knee-jerk reaction, but a direct and correct result that was required due to the actions of a few riders.

Basically we have an obligation to make sure the area is managed and we have some sense of management of the recreation. If we have a big problem with unauthorized trail use, trail cutting, and trespassing......then those issues take priority over the addition of new trails and increase in recreation.

Once again a relatively few number of riders have created a situation that impacts the whole group, but also helps to perpetuate the image of mountain biking in general.

We have great areas to ride locally, and they will just get better if we would just give it a chance.
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[quote=CPATCRASH;49709]

Originally Posted by andy aka rut

If you need help getting this together let me know. That's it...

Just get a group together and get with Larry and Barbara to help them fix the damage. Personally I would like to see the trails just completely disappear, as opposed to seeing new "closed trail" signs located along the ridgeline. These signs are an eyesore and unnecessary if the trails would just disappear.

Once the trespassing subsides and people stop hunting for and using those illegal trails, and one illegal trail in my area, I'll get back to the positive work of implementing our currently approved trails.

For once I would like to see the responsible bikers take this out of the hands of the land managers and send a message to the rouge riders. I think the illegal trail cutters will be less apt to keep performing these actions if responsible bikers come behind them each time and undo their damage.

This would help repair the gap of the user/land manager relations, and personally I'm getting pretty tireed of having to spend much of my time brushing over unauthorized trails and putting up barriers. There's a lot more positive things all land managers could be doing if so much time was not wasted on these issues.

[sailcalifornia]

Which trails in El Moro and Aliso are off limits? I don't know the names of all the trails but it seems as though there are a lot more trails out there than the ones listed on the maps

[Winston]

They have the following names:

"No bikes", "Closed Trail", "Environmentally Sensitive", "Keep Out", and "No Tresspassing"

[SIZE=1]Yes, I have a joke writer.[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by sailcalifornia

Which trails in El Moro and Aliso are off limits? I don't know the names of all the trails but it seems as though there are a lot more trails out there than the ones listed on the maps

[sailcalifornia]

Originally Posted by Winston

They have the following names:

"No bikes", "Closed Trail", "Environmentally Sensitive", "Keep Out", and "No Tresspassing"

[SIZE=1]Yes, I have a joke writer.[/SIZE]

I obviously stay away from those, but there are many others with no markings either way. I don't want to be part of the problem, it is just hard to tell when there is a heavily traveled trail with no sign.

[andy aka rut]

I have to admit. I don't always see eye to eye with JamR. I am quite often on the other side of the fence.
With that being said, I agree with his viewpoints here. I'm glad to see the El Moro Rangers are stepping it up. At the same time, I LOVE some of the illegal trails in El Moro. It is going to be tough to not ride them anymore-but it has to be done. I haven't set foot or wheel in JamR's area in several years so I don't know about his trails, but the legal ones sound great.
I don't know who is cutting the new trails. If I did I would make a plea with them. It is not up to the trail volunteers to stop people from entering closed areas. They are only supposed to inform the "violators." Sorry, I'm kinda rambling.

Chopper-
Good to hear about the new patrol, but why aren't we seeing rangers on the trail in the first place? I see rangers in Aliso, even in the Santa Ana's people patrol the main divide. For the years I've been riding in El Moro, I have NEVER seen a patrol unit on foot, bike or in a vehicle on the trails. It seems to me they should be out there too. I have to hand it to JamR, at least he is out there on the trails. He is making a difference. He is communicating to the masses his frustration and the cycling world (at least part of it) is responding. Adam is not just a land manager to us, he is, in fact a cyclist and to several a friend. Chopper-I like you too! :-)
We all have a passion for these areas. People like Keith (Pres of SHARE,) Chopper, BobL and JamR take a lot of heat for their public opinions, but they also inform us of what is going on. They ACTUALLY go to the meetings. They make the time. Most of us simply hear about the meetings and are too busy to attend. "I have a ride scheduled." "I have to go somewhere." and so on.
These guys are the real deal. Thanks!!!!

[JamR]

Originally Posted by sailcalifornia

Which trails in El Moro and Aliso are off limits? I don't know the names of all the trails but it seems as though there are a lot more trails out there than the ones listed on the maps

Your post stated the simple and logical answer. The ones listed on the maps are the legal trails. The other trails are off limits.

[Chopper]

The focus of patrols in Crystal Cove has, up to now, been on the beach and Historic District. That is where they have felt their resources were best utilized. Now that the abuse of the backcountry has been getting a lot of attention, they have decided to reconsider those priorities. In addition to that is the fact that the new campground will require a great deal more monitoring of the park. People will be camping just outside the El Moro backcountry and I am certain that night time activitiy increase as well as off trail travel and other illegal activities (drinking, motorized use, dogs etc.) There are other political issues also that cannot be discussed on this public forum but sometime when we get together I will share some rather shocking information with you regarding El Moro.
Did you know that there have been 3 cars pulled out of El Moro in the last 6 months. One rolled over in the canyon, one stuck trying to cross the little bridge at the bottom of BFI (no kidding) and one stuck in the mud on a ridge.

BTW Rut, I spent last weekend volunteering at the Shoreline Marathon and guess who my supervisor was. Hint, you were once related to him.

[andy aka rut]

Wow, 3 cars and not a word about it anywhere until you post it now. Kinda ironic... you know?!
I hear you about discussing it somewhere else. No worries.
I have spoken with Adam about getting some people together and doing a "clean up" on the newest trails. He is going to be talking with of the right people at lunch today. He'll get back to me.
Neil is a great guy. He and his wife have volunteered for years. Tell them hi for me next time.

Originally Posted by Chopper

The focus of patrols in Crystal Cove has, up to now, been on the beach and Historic District. That is where they have felt their resources were best utilized. Now that the abuse of the backcountry has been getting a lot of attention, they have decided to reconsider those priorities. In addition to that is the fact that the new campground will require a great deal more monitoring of the park. People will be camping just outside the El Moro backcountry and I am certain that night time activitiy increase as well as off trail travel and other illegal activities (drinking, motorized use, dogs etc.) There are other political issues also that cannot be discussed on this public forum but sometime when we get together I will share some rather shocking information with you regarding El Moro.
Did you know that there have been 3 cars pulled out of El Moro in the last 6 months. One rolled over in the canyon, one stuck trying to cross the little bridge at the bottom of BFI (no kidding) and one stuck in the mud on a ridge.

BTW Rut, I spent last weekend volunteering at the Shoreline Marathon and guess who my supervisor was. Hint, you were once related to him.

[dstepper]

Andy let me know if it happens, I would like to pitch it.

Dean

[MTBMaven]

Originally Posted by JamR

MTBMaven,

Some not quite accurate information is stated here. Irvine is not shutting trails down, but your post pretty much makes one of my points.

JamR,

I only quoted the beginning of your post because it was long. I totally and completely agree with your comments and share your frustration. Yes the people who illegally worked on an illegal trail are the ones to blame for this incident. I think my frustration, and think that of others posting here, is the potential wholesale scapegoating of the mountain bike community because of the actions of a few. I do not know the local politics of the area so I will try not to pass judgment on the land managers. I do know that your efforts can only help so please keep up the good work.

I hope that there is something that the mountain bike community can do to help rectify these actions and help open new legal trails in the area. If there is anything that can be done I encourage you to post events on this and other forums. It will be important for the MTB community to be seen as part of the solution rather than the problem.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by MTBMaven

JamR,

I hope that there is something that the mountain bike community can do to help rectify these actions and help open new legal trails in the area. If there is anything that can be done I encourage you to post events on this and other forums. It will be important for the MTB community to be seen as part of the solution rather than the problem.

The best solution would be for bikers to step up when these situations arise and help repair the damage. This would send a clear message to the rouge bikers that the other bikers themselves will no longer be putting up with these actions. Typically the land managers are left with the task of making the trail repairs, and are labeled as "tree huggers", "trail Nazi’s" and the like for doing their jobs.

I'm really not trying to scapegoat bikers in general, but is a simple reality that I cannot open a new trail that is so close to these illegal trails, and not while the increased trespassing is still prevalent because of the trails.

When the trails are closed and left alone, and trespassing subsides; then I'll get back to getting the already approved legal single track on line. It is an unfortunate reality that a very small number of self-centered riders messed it up for the riders who have been waiting for our new trail to be open for the public tours. They will just have to wait a little longer until we are assured that our new trail will not contribute to the problem for the City of Irvine property.

Thanks

[Burner]

I enjoy riding el moro when I'm down in OC for an afternoon. I'd show up for some trail work.

[gurp13]

FWIW, let me say that I don't condone illegal trail building and I think this was wrong.

That being said, I still think that blaming all mtnbikers for this is like saying people can't drive now because some drunk hit a pedestrian. But, I get what you're saying. I've only really been doing this riding for a year now but this prejudice against mtbers is deep-rooted and goes back years. And, it's goofy! As if hikers never cause trail damage. That's all I'm saying. People who use trails have an impact. Period.

But, anyway, I'm not arguing with JamR or anyone, I don't think.

Peace in the middle east and all that.