El Moro unauthorized trail closure

[dstepper]

Originally Posted by RFXIbibisTom

The rangers drove a CAT, as in caterpillar up it, up a single track.

Yeeee.

Rangers don't drive the Cats, it is either Orange County Fire Authority or a vendor they hire. How someone thought Cholla was a fireroad in beyond me.

Dean

[dirtvert]

okay...Laguna Coast and El Moro were designed as multi-use parks: hiking, mtb, and equestrian. but with an overriding goal of preservation (permanently, unless arnold decides to put another toll road through). they will never have housing developments.

i would suggest that people, if they already haven't, take the time to go through the new nix center on the 133 (it's free) and talk to some of the volunteers. most of them worked hard for many years-and the city of laguna beach taxed themselves- to preserve laguna coast from development. it's a unique and, with our increasing amount of fires, an endangered ecosystem that we're lucky to be able to play in.

[KeepsWhatHappens]

Some of my friends give me alot of sh!t when I refuse to ride illegal horse trails in O'Neill. I tell them I'd like to set a good example and I have a reputation (as a Warriors society member) to uphold. But they are too shallow to understand and just are being dicks. How should I deal with them?

[kbteachme]

Originally Posted by KeepsWhatHappens

Some of my friends give me alot of sh!t when I refuse to ride illegal horse trails in O'Neill. I tell them I'd like to set a good example and I have a reputation (as a Warriors society member) to uphold. But they are too shallow to understand and just are being dicks. How should I deal with them?

[JamR]

Originally Posted by KeepsWhatHappens

Some of my friends give me alot of sh!t when I refuse to ride illegal horse trails in O'Neill. I tell them I'd like to set a good example and I have a reputation (as a Warriors society member) to uphold. But they are too shallow to understand and just are being dicks. How should I deal with them?

IMO, it basically comes down to the quality of the friends and the friendship. I would not call someone who gives you sh#t for not riding illegal trails with them a friend.

I have friends that I know who ride some non-sanctioned trails and we discuss it periodically when we talk. They don't agree with my position and I don't agree with theirs; however we don't disrespect each other or give each other sh#t.

They know where I stand so they never put me in the position of having to peel off from the ride while they take a non-authorized route.

Basically you should not have to deal with them at all.

If they don't have enough respect for you to not give you Sh#t for doing something they know is wrong (especially if they already know your position)......I would not really consider them friends.

Friends don't have to agree on everyting, but they should have mutual respect for each others position even if it's a totally opposite point of view.

Just my .02

[BullitEater]

Telonix is still not part of the park and you sound like you would like the trail closed. If you have ridden the trail lately you would see the trail is in great shape. This through the efforts of riders who like riding great tech trails. Countless man-hours were spent this last year getting this trail back to it's previous glory. If you don't like and/or can't appreciate this trail or others like it keep it to yourself. FYI this trail is one of the oldest not in the park and has much history to it. Leave it alone.

Originally Posted by JamR

We need to careful to be accurate here.

Telonics has never been legal even though it was not part of the park. It is not shown on any authorized map and there have been Laguna Beach P.D. officers called out in the past to deal with the use of the trail. I don't believe there has ever been anything but a conversation between the P.D. and the users (from what I have heard just to appease the complainers); but nothing that has occurred can still have the trail considered legal.

It was just one of those trails that Laguna Beach and the private property owner basically let slide. Just like Stairsteps......never a totally legal trail until Laguna Beach recognized it and included it on their trail map, which in turn was the tipping point to where the County recognized it and signed it at the top; although it's not technically part of Aliso-Woods except for the very top.

The property that Telonics is located has been purchased by the Laguna Canyon Foundation and is now part of the protected Laguna Greenbelt, and more-than-likely will in the future (near or far, I'm not sure) become part of either Aliso-Woods or Laguna Coast.

This is why for so many years I keep posting about the danger of users simply sitting back and being complacent. Sitting back with blinders on does not work, and we'll probably see Telonics go through the same issue as many other trails. Eventually it will probably be closed and the users will all clammer at the eleventh hour and get all worked up......even though they have had years of warnings and years of time that they could have spent working to get it legalized.

If it becomes a part of the county park and is not added to the RRMP for the Park.....it will be closed and restored back to habitat and users will be cited. With 12 years of warnings.........IMO, users will have no right to complain, especially if you've been riding that trail for 12 years, and in 12 years have done nothing........you should not be surprised if it gets closed.

The people who have been using this trail for years have literally had years to show up to meetings and start asking for it's inclusion onto the mapped system......but out of all the City Council Meetings, Coastal Greenbelt Meetings, County Board Meetings, RRTAC Meetings......etc... that I've attended for the past 12 years........I cannot recall anyone ever asking for this trail.

People need to be willing to get involved and not expect a relatively small group to do all of the work for them.

I've stated it before on previous posts.........if people are passionate about Telonics......they better get off their butts and get involved.

Once it gets a biological review and gets listed to be closed......it will be closed, restored, and enforced.

People need to really post accurately here.

Telonics is not legal and is definitely on the bubble to be closed.

[art23rockpile]

For what it's worth...

Just because something's legal, it doesn't mean it's right.
And just because something's illegal, it does not make it wrong.

The trail mentioned IS in good shape, due to the efforts of those who volunteer their time. I have a number of friends who ride it, and personally see nothing wrong in their doing so. Also, I see no indication that JamR wants the trail eradicated. Neither one of these issues is relevant at the moment.

Adam brings up a valid point: if people feel so strongly about this trail, why hasn't anyone taken on the 'dirty work' of trying to get it legalised?

Originally Posted by BullitEater

Telonix is still not part of the park and you sound like you would like the trail closed. If you have ridden the trail lately you would see the trail is in great shape. This through the efforts of riders who like riding great tech trails. Countless man-hours were spent this last year getting this trail back to it's previous glory. If you don't like and/or can't appreciate this trail or others like it keep it to yourself. FYI this trail is one of the oldest not in the park and has much history to it. Leave it alone.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by BullitEater

Telonix is still not part of the park and you sound like you would like the trail closed. If you have ridden the trail lately you would see the trail is in great shape. This through the efforts of riders who like riding great tech trails. Countless man-hours were spent this last year getting this trail back to it's previous glory. If you don't like and/or can't appreciate this trail or others like it keep it to yourself. FYI this trail is one of the oldest not in the park and has much history to it. Leave it alone.

I guess you did not read all of my post.

I already said it's not part of the park......but the property has been purchased by the Laguna Canyon Foundation and is part of the protected Laguna Greenbelt, and will probably become part of the park in the future. This is a simple reality and a fact of life.....nothing less.

Also please don't put words in my mouth or make assumptions.....I would like to see Telonics on the legal map, but it's not going to get there by complacency, whining, or complaining.

Just trying to point out that if and when it becomes part of the park, it may be closed; and the people who have sat idly by for more than a decade, and have not attended any meetings.....nor lifted a finger to try to get it on the map should not have a right to complain.

This is not a secret trail and its future is not certain by any means.....and I guarantee that a day will come when its presence will be on the decision block. Just another fact of life that will not go away.

People have known for more than a decade that one day there would be decisions made on many local trails to either bring them into the system or close them as things change (like incorporation into county, state, or city areas).

My point again is simple, and I don't understand why people seem to get so upset at this message......if you like Telonics.....then get involved and work to get it on the map. It simply will not exist forever in its current state. Eventually as the property changes management....the trail will need to be addressed. This is just a fact of life.

People cannot just bury their heads in the sand and make believe that the trail will not be questioned in the future.

I guess my biggest question to the people who love this trail is why the resistance against working to get it legalized? Why wait till the eleventh out just to get all worked up......because the eleventh hour is coming sooner or later.

Again....I would like to see Telonics legalized, but I can't bury my head from reality that it may not happen if users don't get involved.

I guess my big question here is....why are the passionate people here not working to get the trail on the map?

I'm Really curious about that?????

I'm just pointing out that if people just sit back and do nothing......one of these days you may see a post about Telonics that starts just like this post started.....with the news that the managers went out and eliminated the trail. Then everyone will be all up in arms like they had no clue that this would happen.

There have been more than 10 years of warnings and with the change in ownership of the property......the trails status is one step closer to some sort of decision.

Just get involved.......that all I've been saying for years.

Again....this trail is no secret. The Aliso-Woods RRMP documents do show all of the trails that migrate down to the canyon even in the parcels not managed by the park....because part of the RRMP process is to inventory all of the trails both in the existing park and in the adjacent connecting areas. You can clearly see the Telonics alignment on the map of trails and it is shown as "unauthorized".

Again.....I'm simply pointing out that this issue is not just going to go away. Just like Laguna Coast has reviewed all their trails, the City of Irvine Has reviewed all their trails, the State is obviously checking their trails (and beginning to close some).....Aliso-Woods is in currently in the process of their RRMP....which does not encompass Telonics.....but again, that may change in the future.

I basically try to deal with facts and reality as they exist, and Telonics is facing a reality that will not solve itself.

Get involved

[Patrick]

I respect your point and your passion is what we need to protect our trails.
I believe that Telonics could never be made public because it ends on private property. If there were some legal "exit" maybe. If this trail were to be brought up before a committee, it would be officially marked illegal because they would have to summon the land owners at the end. They are tolerant of the few that exit the trail now because it's a relatively small # or folks. No offence, but if this trail were to be legalized you would have every jack ass in darth vader body armor blowing down the trail until someone died and then it would be closed anyway. The uncertainty kind of acts as a deterrent now

[JamR]

Originally Posted by Patrick

I respect your point and your passion is what we need to protect our trails.
I believe that Telonics could never be made public because it ends on private property. If there were some legal "exit" maybe. If this trail were to be brought up before a committee, it would be officially marked illegal because they would have to summon the land owners at the end. They are tolerant of the few that exit the trail now because it's a relatively small # or folks. No offence, but if this trail were to be legalized you would have every jack ass in darth vader body armor blowing down the trail until someone died and then it would be closed anyway. The uncertainty kind of acts as a deterrent now

It's not unheard of instances where trails enter or exit through private property.....it does take planning, easements, waivers, etc...but not impossible.

The issue is that Telonics will be on the bubble, because regardless of the private holdings at the bottom: the other slope areas are now part of protected area, and people cannot just ignore it. It's an issue that is simply not going to disappear....and if people do nothing....it will be closed for sure, and put under a restoration plan, monitored, and enforced.

I understand your points, but they won't change the realityof the situation.

Would people rather have Telonics with possibly more traffic, or no Telonics at all?

People got involved and worked for additional trails, and some of them have become a reality.....it can definitely happen.....but to do nothing will absolutely guarantee failure.

I definitely understand that many people believe that if they ask for a particular trail; their concern is that it will bring that trail to light and cause its closure by the various managers.........but all of the trails in this area that are not part of the managed systems will be eventually closed anyway since they are not secrets by any means.

It may be too late for some while others may still have a chance......but people will never know unless they get involved and ask.

If people really care about any particular trail, they should be getting involved.

[maxwell]

JamR, you've got PM.

[RFXIbibisTom]

Originally Posted by dstepper

Rangers don't drive the Cats, it is either Orange County Fire Authority or a vendor they hire. How someone thought Cholla was a fire road in beyond me.

Dean

Thanks, and I should have mentioned that as I was ACTUALLY out there on the day the CAT destroyed Cholla.
When I asked the guy what he was doing he told me he was trying to get up to the fire road. He didn't know you could go around on the street. HE WASN'T IN UNIFORM ALTHOUGH I HAVE SEEN RANGERS BEHIND THE WHEEL OF A CAT BEFORE.

Whatever the case may be, it seems very hypocritical for the powers that be to be upset about NEW TRAILS being built.

The deliverance thing really ticks me off in that the Rangers had the FIRE DEPT. come in and do it. To pay all those firemen overtime is expensive. IF THEY WANTED IT OUT, THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT THEMSELVES. (they being the Rangers)

Our state has a HUGE shortage of cash for FIRE, POLICE and of course EDUCATION. I have staff members at my school that have been RIFFED due to the lack of funds for next year. NOT COOL.

[kbteachme]

Originally Posted by RFXIbibisTom

Our state has a HUGE shortage of cash for FIRE, POLICE and of course EDUCATION. I have staff members at my school that have been RIFFED due to the lack of funds for next year. NOT COOL.

Tom, I 100% agree with you. Why pay someone to block a trail when the teachers at my school are getting RIFFed, too. Where do their priorities lie? It looks like the education funding gets hacked first.

[maxwell]

This whole disscusion reminds me a little of a song I know...........

"Before you judge me take a look at you
Can't you find something better to do
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

It's not who you are it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges build them back with wealth
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are

You know not"

This is just how I feel, and is not aimed at anyone in particular.

I'm all for trying to get certain trails "legalized", and am willing go try and do what it takes to make it happen.
But what WILL end up happening if they do become legit, is what has happened to Stairsteps & T&A since they were marked as "open" trails.

And that my friend's will be a sad day!

[bcs]

Originally Posted by Chopper

Where Crystal Cove is concerned, the more we (mountain bikers) support them, the more they support us.

Totally agree about responsibility, and not riding closed areas. But if these guys are so supportive of us, then instead of closing an "unauthorized" trail, why don't they figure out what paperwork they have to do to "authorize" its use?

[Crystal Cove RSM]

Hey!

Just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Dominic and I'm with the Resource Management (Environmental Restoration) crew here at Crystal Cove / El Morro.

Once removal of the trails began, we were pretty sure that there had to be some e-uproar somewhere.

I haven't had the time to read through the whole thread yet, I wanted to introduce myself.

As someone who has grown up riding bikes (ABA racing as a little kid, long time MTb'r and more recently a road cyclist) I totally understand and empathize with some of the frustration with the State Park's actions.

There is quite a bit of misinformation here. I can assure you that no Ranger ever drove a CAT up any single track and there was no time where we had "the fire department" working to remove trails. (CDF Fire crew is a prison-release program - as well as being a very cost effective/frugal use of our State's resources, they generally fight large wilderness fires and only work in the parks during the winter and low-fire-threat weather conditions)


I will finish reading it and try and respond to/explain everyone's complaints and problems as soon as I can.


I also want to extend Crystal Cove's sincerest thanks to those members of this community that are taking the time to explain to others how important preservation of California's wilderness areas really is.