El Moro unauthorized trail closure

[ericfoltz]

I think that considering that all of our Wilderness Parks (Whiting, Aliso, LCWP, Limestone, Oaks, Peter's, Riley, O'Neill, Casper's, etc...) were originally on private property and were only created as a result of the County and various environmental groups banding together to force developers to create "open space" in their plans, we should do everything in our power to preserve access to these areas.

When I was growing up in El Toro in the early '70s, most of the Saddleback Valley looked like these parks look now, so if you're living in South County in a home built after 1975, I wouldn't be bitching too much about the evil money-grubbing developers wrecking the land because you helped support them.

Considering the value of land in South Country, I think we are indeed fortunate to have what we have. Go to other urban areas of the country and try and find parks like Whiting, Aliso, Oaks and El Moro that have MTBing and are just minutes from your house. They just don't exist.

Instead of feeling entitled to create trails wherever the heck we want, we should be grateful that the trails are open to us at all. Even considering that MTBers are one of the biggest user groups at some of the parks and contribute the majority of the maintenance, we are still a small group overall.

If you want to dig some trails, build jumps, etc... buy some land and do what you please because the land in the parks is not just owned by you. It is also owned by the other three million residents of OC. Most of whom did not fight to preserve that open space and support it through their donations and taxes just so a small group can tear it up and create a big BMX park.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by JamR

Interesting figures but not factual. This is the type of hype that does not do our sport any justice.

I can think of 9 previously non-sanctioned trails and new trails that have been opened locally, with more still in the planning, and nowhere near 40 that were closed.

Please be factual in these posts.

One other problem with your post is that if there were truly 40 or more non-authorized trails locally; it would clearly indicate that there is a local problem; and that also does not reflect well on the sport.

Take the time to look at the map of Aliso, LCWP, El Moro, and the Irvine areas; and count the number of legal trails........it is a considerable number of trails for the size of the area; and a lot more dense than many similar areas across the country.

We actually have a pretty lucrative system of trails locally and have very little to complain about IMO.

We need to try to post reality here. A lot of trails have been opened it the distant and recent past, and more are in the works.............it's not a bleak picture locally for mountain biking...........lots of trails to enjoy!

Just my .02

You are wrong, nice try. Notice I said "built" not "sanctioned". The trails existed and really didn't need to be sanctioned by you or anyone else. So I'll say again ONE legal trail has been BUILT since the parks were established. Look at your precious RMP, all the red lined trails that are marked as illegal were pre-existing before the parks were established and were later closed. There are over 40 in that area alone.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by ericfoltz

When I was growing up in El Toro in the early '70s, most of the Saddleback Valley looked like these parks look now, so if you're living in South County in a home built after 1975, I wouldn't be bitching too much about the evil money-grubbing developers wrecking the land because you helped support them.

Born and raised in Orange county in 1966. Moved to Mission Viejo in 1971.

[Kish Me]

... Play by the rules when you are on someone else's.

Originally Posted by ericfoltz

...If you want to dig some trails, build jumps, etc... buy some land and do what you please because the land in the parks is not just owned by you. It is also owned by the other three million residents of OC. Most of whom did not fight to preserve that open space and support it through their donations and taxes just so a small group can tear it up and create a big BMX park.

Thank you, I've said this many times! Heck, If you had enough $$, you could even buy up some land and build a university! Welcome to the World!

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by Rivet

Actually people were mountainbiking in the Laguna area long before the parks were established, in fact EVERY single trail in the Laguna parks was created by mountainbikers. My favorite bit of Hypocrisy was when they shut a bunch of trails down in Aliso for "habitat restoration" and then a year later leveled the whole area and built a university on top, sweet.

Not true. Many trails were built by guys on dirt bikes (motorcycles). Many of those trails have since grown over, and no one could ever tell they existed (which contrdicts those who claim the environment has been ruined).

But you're correct about habitat restoration turned into buildings. Drive along Laguna Canyon road from the 5 freeway.

Originally Posted by JamR

I can think of 9 previously non-sanctioned trails and new trails that have been opened locally, with more still in the planning,...

I haven't seen any of that on those so-called ellusive maps. They're more rare than...what's that frog again?

Originally Posted by JamR

We need to try to post reality here.

As far as I'm concerned, they can take that whole spiel and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. And here's the reality: Ride EVERYTHING you can, while you can. It'll all soon be houses, and you'll regret not riding what you could have.

[freewheeler]

Originally Posted by L8 APEKS

No more than talking about them on the internet.



...until a development company shows them enough money and more homes are built. But nobody whines about the MILLIONS of acres of natural habitat destroyed. Instead, people get in a flurry over a narrow dirt trail that was "constructed" inside an already existing park of trails.

I have talked to numerous people who are building (sanctioned) trials in Canada. Up there the environmental people love mtb trails. They view the greatest threats to the environment as strip mining and clear cut logging. So, for them if they get mtb trails cut on the land they can make a claim that the miners and loggers are removing recreation access.

Look what happened at the San Clemente Single tracks- off limits (illeagal) until they want to build a toll road and then- Boom- signs go up, instant legal trails!

[JamR]

Originally Posted by Rivet

You are wrong, nice try. Notice I said "built" not "sanctioned". The trails existed and really didn't need to be sanctioned by you or anyone else. So I'll say again ONE legal trail has been BUILT since the parks were established. Look at your precious RMP, all the red lined trails that are marked as illegal were pre-existing before the parks were established and were later closed. There are over 40 in that area alone.

Try to lose some of the anger here.......not worth getting worked up over.

I did read and understand that you said "Built"; which is why my post did not say built trails but opened trails. However getting access to previously non-sanctioned trails is a pretty substantial win and a positive move in the right direction. Plus with the number of non-sanctioned trails out there; there is really not much of a need locally to build "new" trails, because the more common sense approach is to adopt existing trails (which has been done in quite a few instances).

As for new trails that have been built.
Stagecoach South (technically two separate sections built by two different groups) with one section currently opened and one pending completion with the addition of a bridge.
The Quail Trail Link from Quail Hill to the top of Serrano Ridge. New cut trail.
The Bommer Meadows Trail recently cut and currently awaiting two trail bridges that are being fabricated. This trail will be the eventual 7 day link to the top of Ridge Park.

Also, if approved......much of the corridor trail from the top of Cholla down to El Toro Road will be a new cut.

So there have been and will be more than 1 newly built trail, which when combined with the non-sanctioned trails that have been and/or are being reviewed for opening..........the number of trails that will be added to the system is pretty substantial.

The list so far of newly built and adopted trails
StairSteps - open
Laguna Ridge - open
Emerald Falls - open
Stagecoach South from Nix to Camarillo - open
Stagecoach South from Camarillo to Willow - pending
Quail Trail link from Quail Hill to Serrano - open
Cattle Crest - open
Rabbit Run - open
Fox Run - open
Shady Oaks ST - open
Ridge Route - open
Lizards - pending
Bommer Meadows - under construction
Car Wreck - pending
Esslinger - pending
Corridor - pending
Nestalls - pending
Aliso Summit - pending
Five Oaks Loop Connector - pending
Serrano Ridge Loop to Stagecoach North back to the Nix - soon to be opened 7 days per week

The point is that we are clearly not lacking trails locally and there have been some serious gains in access to new and previously non-sanctioned trails with more to come.

So to paint this area as a bleak picture where mountain bikers are suffering losses left and right is not accurate.

We simply cannot have access to everything and every area has a carrying capacity that the land managers have to be sensitive to.

We're never going to have access to everything, but I think we have a lot to be thankful for locally and have some really nice trails to ride.

With this many positive things taking place locally......I just don't see a lot of need for anger or negativity.

Let's focus on the positive

Thanks!

[2wheel_lee]

I believe a lot of those trails that are either pending or are now legal were once illegal. The moral of the story here is that we have to make sure that there are a good supply off illegal trails available, so that one day they may become legal. You see, that's positive thinking!

[Bonz]

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

I believe a lot of those trails that are either pending or are now legal were once illegal. The moral of the story here is that we have to make sure that there are a good supply off illegal trails available, so that one day they may become legal. You see, that's positive thinking!

You forgot that first they were legal, then illegal, and now legal or mostly pending. Side note, they have been 'pending' for (what seems like) 4 or 5 years. IMO the main problem is that a lot of people were riding the trails before they were made illegal and certain groups of people feel entitled to still ride them. JamR and Chopper do put a ton of work into the 'system' and I think most of us do appreciate it, but on this list of trails only a few of the pending trails will fulfill the riders seeking more technical riding. Lets face it, that there are only a few existing legal/challenging trails for people who ride at or above an expert level.

The RMP is no question a benefit to all, but the ‘system’ has been flawed from the start. JamR, I know you are working within the system and I am sure it frustrates you. Personally I don’t think a compromise will ever be met, unless the powers that be are willing to open 4 or 5 more technical trails in both Aliso and LCW. Maybe that could be a goal for the RMP

I was out in El Moro yesterday riding with my wife and saw the newly closed trail. I think it is a bummer that the Rangers and Fire crew had to cut down so much vegetation to ‘close’ a trail. Strange to me that cutting down 20 or 30 years of tree and plant growth is “saving” nature. Right now as I type people are walking around all that dead kindling to go ride.

[L8 APEKS]

Originally Posted by Bonz

You forgot that first they were legal, then illegal, and now legal or mostly pending. Side note, they have been 'pending' for (what seems like) 4 or 5 years.

So basically, the system is just a bunch of BS and they don't have their act together any more than we do.

[cjwally]

Originally Posted by Bonz

Right now as I type people are walking around all that dead kindling to go ride.

Write that down....

[Bonz]

Originally Posted by L8 APEKS

So basically, the system is just a bunch of BS and they don't have their act together any more than we do.

Not really, there was no "system" in the beginning. Then the system arrived and laid down the law.

[DISCO]

For some reason I enjoy adding fuel to and fanning smoldering flames. Though my studies and career are focused on the exploitation of dirt for profit I am one of the select few on this board that also enjoy digging for the common good. I intend to state my position on three topics, not to say my opinion is supreme but merely to kill some time and feel productive before I go off and play with my bike.

1. Land: Virtually everything south of Jamboree up to about Bake and from Lomas ridge to the Sea is Irvine Co land. Originally farmland it now has the distinction of being the third most costly dirt to occupy nationwide. This means that unlike the I.E. one cannot simply Bobcat an MX track without someone bitching about the noise and dust. Therefore if Sierra club types spot wooden improvements like bridges and ramps the news travels quicker than stink in a car.

2. Safety: Many of us in this community have jumped people, vehicles and the occasional flaming dumpster. So trails like Rock problem and nuthin' better to do have immense appeal to us. The problem is that jogging strollers and horses have a rough time with huge drops and obstacles not to mention the overweight middle aged couch potato with less than 50 miles on their Costco hard tail. It is even more challenging for rescue personnel to pull casualties out of there without a chopper or jet pack. So until the Irvine Co. can hire the Rocketeer it has to keep enormous retainers with it's legal staff just to allow everyone access while avoiding Snow Summit style liabilities. El Moro was given to the sate and with record budget shortfalls it is cheaper to knock it down than add it to the inventory. This is why the vanilla cake trails lack the proverbial creme filling our sweet tooth demands.

Us Dirty Bikers: Though I can neither confirm nor deny poaching of any sort I do frequently maintain trails for safety and sustainability. It is a humble group to which we owe thanks for their countless hours of toil catering to the indulgences of a select few. Jumps and drops are the dessert of my trail menu but alas in this case sometimes go out of season. The culprit is usually non-locals flooding in and leaving mountains of trash and wicked ruts in their wake (just like BMX trails). Doing things the right way not only takes a very long time but also sanitizes even the most unadventurous of plans. So as a user group we need to get more solidarity, in the nineties I used to be the only BMX rider at a city hall packed with skaters at the planning phase of new concrete parks. Trouble was it wound up being easier to just hop the fence once the place up than trying to amend the safety rules solo. In this case having the credibility of a group like SHARE would at least make the CCIA or state listen to a speakers position. This round has already been decided in the favor of anti-bike groups but illustrates what happens when proceeding without a plan and more importantly the blessing of the land owner or its appointed governing body.

So to summarize; before taking a position on a trail you have not personally ridden or built try to get all the facts or at least contact someone involved. For the future I would like to see folks dig as much as they ride and participate in and support groups who exist to fight for our common cause.

[G-Ride]

Originally Posted by JamR

The list so far of newly built and adopted trails
StairSteps - open
Laguna Ridge - open
Emerald Falls - open
Stagecoach South from Nix to Camarillo - open
Stagecoach South from Camarillo to Willow - pending
Quail Trail link from Quail Hill to Serrano - open
Cattle Crest - open
Rabbit Run - open
Fox Run - open
Shady Oaks ST - open
Ridge Route - open
Lizards - pending
Bommer Meadows - under construction
Car Wreck - pending
Esslinger - pending
Corridor - pending
Nestalls - pending
Aliso Summit - pending
Five Oaks Loop Connector - pending
Serrano Ridge Loop to Stagecoach North back to the Nix - soon to be opened 7 days per week

First, kudos to you Adam. I, for one, appreciate the difficult and thankless work you have personally put into getting trails opened/reopened. It's good seeing some of these trails on the pending list. The question I have (for the powers that be) is this. If we are not supposed to ride unauthorized trails due to potential harm to sensitive habitats and such, how is it some of these are now possibly going to be opened? Did the sensitive habitats go away? Or as I suspect, does this all boil down to politics and they simply play the environment card as their categorical response because they can't think of any other reason? To me, this reduces credibility in that respect. What, all of a sudden because they decide to "open" a trail, we are not hurting the habitat, but when it was technically closed, we were hurting it? And if you really want to discuss the reality of it, what harm is a single trail or even a few trails when compared to the loss of habitat and environmental damage created by the hulking behemoth of a freeway that runs next to them? I understand how lucky we are to have these areas and how important our native flora and fauna are, but it gets really tiring to hear the same old story that never really held any weight to begin with.

[chongoblanco]

here we go again

patrollers thanks for the heads up.

everyone else

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by L8 APEKS

The reason we don't have more trails or bike parks here...like they have in Canada, for example...is because it's not profitable.

And since most people like to park at MILF park to avoid paying the measly $3 bucks, the parks will never make any money to help sustain them.