Ladera Ridge and the Ladera Ranch Trail

[Doctor Hollywood]

There has been a lot of talk about this trail (east of Antonio and west of RMV) in the past couple days following the most recent airlift. There seems to be a difference of opinions about the legality of this trail. A lot of good dialog began in the "Rider Down" forum but I think this topic deserves its own thread for better exposure.

Here is my take on the issue and by no means is my word official, but I am pretty sure this trail is not illegal. Other than hearsay, I have never seen anything official that states this trail is closed to the public. To the contrary, the trail is listed as an official trail on the trail map produced by LARMAC (city structure of Ladera Ranch) that is posted on the city wide intranet site (www.laderalife.com) available only to residents of Ladera Ranch. I saved a copy of the map and it is attached below.

The map calls this trail out as part of the "Ladera Ranch Trail" on the far right of the map. It is clearly referring to the section of trail from the apartment complex up along the ridge above the shopping center up to Firehose and including the Firehose singletrack. That being said, the map is not clear about the part beyond the hump that continues to Pipeline and Oso.

It is also my unofficial opinion that RMV no longer owns the land that this trail occupies. Before Ladera Ranch, Antonio Pkwy and Oso Pkwy were built, the trail was a ranch access road that stretched from near Ortega Hwy to just north of where the 241 ends. When Oso was built (still pre Ladera), the access road was bisected and the hump at the top of Firehose was graded because there weren't anymore places to safely turn a truck around beyond the hump to the north. When Ladera Ranch got built, the land ownership became unincorporated Orange County and an access road was cut for the utilities on the top of the hill above the water tower. There are signs on the barbwire fence along the east edge of the trail that indicate no trespassing is allowed beyond the fence in to the valley which is still ranch owned land. I doubt the panhandle of land north of the hump between Las Flores and Tesoro HS is still owned by the ranch, although it is possible. In my opinion it is most likely county land.

There is a removable barb wire fence/gate up above the substation where the utility access road intersects with the old ranch road. Beyond the gate to the south is still RMV land. That is referred to as Lower Chiquita Ridge Road and it is illegal to ride on. The barb wire gate has been pulled down for the last couple months, but I would not recommend taking the road all the way down to Ortega.

I know that some people have posted on this forum that they have seen no trespassing signs where the trail meets Oso. I have been riding this trail multiple times per week for the past two and a half years and have never once seen such a sign. I even rode it the day someone claimed the signs were there and I saw nothing of the sort. Maybe they were confusing this trail head with some of the others off Oso near Chiquita and RMV that do have signs posted.

Until someone posts something from an official source stating this trail is off limits, I feel it is safe for us to ride it. I rode it a few days ago and the singetrack from Oso to Firehose is in great shape. Just watch out for the hump.

Questions/Comments?

[bdegroodt]

Nice job Doc. Fully agree with the assessment.

[ladera Dave]

I agree, I have been riding this trail with the bike shop for years, we have only been hasseled once on Pipline by a wagon wheel owner, I think he was venting because he could not ride with us. A great place to ride at night.

[Doctor Hollywood]

I'm pretty sure Pipeline isn't legal, but that's what I thought about Firehose until I found the map on Laderalife.

[Revalimage]

I rode it yesterday - when I was putting my bike back on my car the fire marshall was on his way back in and stopped to ask 'How difficult/technical' is that trail. I asked him if he was asking due to the recent injuries - he said yes.

My response was, 'No not technical at all, no need to fix/change/or alter. Accidents happen everywhere, open easy trails, tough technical trails too. This was just an unfortunate accident.' Hoping this area does not get anymore attention - it is the best 1 hour loop once a week while my son is at his tutor in Ladera.

Not taking sides - just an FYI and my personal THANK YOU! to you folks who created maintain these very fun and special trails (PM me for help if ever needed).

[stacy]

So, I never ridden there, and I understand that some of us are purists. I understand that you can't make mtn bike riding "safe" and technical trails should be left technical. But, seems a good number of people have been hurt on a feature that isn't needed or natural. Cindy's injury is pretty serious, others might be worse. Leaving it there seems to be a bigger danger than taking it out and risking "attention" that might close the trail. It does sound like it's a pretty benign trail and there is this one dangerous spot that many people don't recognize until they crash. A balancing test weighing the dangers of leaving the hump in vs. taking it out would seem to demand taking it out. In my mind risking a serious injury or death, in light of the kind of riders on this easy trail, and the past injuries seems worse than the risk of taking it out and perhaps drawing attention to the trail and perhaps getting it closed. I love mtn biking, but let's not stand in the way of doing something reasonable to prevent a serious injury b/c of the argument that you can't make all trails "safe".

Forgive me for the rant. May rational minds prevail.

[ericfoltz]

Just got back from riding and someone has already taken it upon themselves to "modify" the hump.

[OTB_again]

There has been a lot of talk about this trail (east of Antonio and west of RMV) in the past couple days following the most recent airlift. There seems to be a difference of opinions about the legality of this trail. A lot of good dialog began in the "Rider Down" forum but I think this topic deserves its own thread for better exposure.

Here is my take on the issue and by no means is my word official, but I am pretty sure this trail is not illegal. Other than hearsay, I have never seen anything official that states this trail is closed to the public. To the contrary, the trail is listed as an official trail on the trail map produced by LARMAC (city structure of Ladera Ranch) that is posted on the city wide intranet site (www.laderalife.com) available only to residents of Ladera Ranch. I saved a copy of the map and it is attached below.

The map calls this trail out as part of the "Ladera Ranch Trail" on the far right of the map. It is clearly referring to the section of trail from the apartment complex up along the ridge above the shopping center up to Firehose and including the Firehose singletrack. That being said, the map is not clear about the part beyond the hump that continues to Pipeline and Oso.

It is also my unofficial opinion that RMV no longer owns the land that this trail occupies. Before Ladera Ranch, Antonio Pkwy and Oso Pkwy were built, the trail was a ranch access road that stretched from near Ortega Hwy to just north of where the 241 ends. When Oso was built (still pre Ladera), the access road was bisected and the hump at the top of Firehose was graded because there weren't anymore places to safely turn a truck around beyond the hump to the north. When Ladera Ranch got built, the land ownership became unincorporated Orange County and an access road was cut for the utilities on the top of the hill above the water tower. There are signs on the barbwire fence along the east edge of the trail that indicate no trespassing is allowed beyond the fence in to the valley which is still ranch owned land. I doubt the panhandle of land north of the hump between Las Flores and Tesoro HS is still owned by the ranch, although it is possible. In my opinion it is most likely county land.

There is a removable barb wire fence/gate up above the substation where the utility access road intersects with the old ranch road. Beyond the gate to the south is still RMV land. That is referred to as Lower Chiquita Ridge Road and it is illegal to ride on. The barb wire gate has been pulled down for the last couple months, but I would not recommend taking the road all the way down to Ortega.

I know that some people have posted on this forum that they have seen no trespassing signs where the trail meets Oso. I have been riding this trail multiple times per week for the past two and a half years and have never once seen such a sign. I even rode it the day someone claimed the signs were there and I saw nothing of the sort. Maybe they were confusing this trail head with some of the others off Oso near Chiquita and RMV that do have signs posted.

Until someone posts something from an official source stating this trail is off limits, I feel it is safe for us to ride it. I rode it a few days ago and the singetrack from Oso to Firehose is in great shape. Just watch out for the hump.

Questions/Comments?

Thanks for the input, Mike. I need to make a run up to the County and pull the recorded maps to check on ownership. If anyone on here works for a title company, maybe they could assist with the records search?

[bdegroodt]

Just got back from riding and someone has already taken it upon themselves to "modify" the hump.

Seriously? As in how modified? I really wish that hadn't happened.

I was all for a sign or something, but removal really puts the nice part of the trail (i.e the singletrack after the hump) at risk of motorbikes. Not too worried about trucks/cars because I can't see how one could fit through there.

[JamR]

It's really nice to see this type of detailed research and effort being done by bikers to help determine the legitimacy or otherwise on a trail system.

This type of demonstrated concern and detailed query certainly adds to the credibility of the sport and the riders.

I'm a firm believer in just obtaining the correct information....even if it means sometimes finding out something that may not particulary go in our favor.

At least with the proper information, the riders will have the information of who to make contact with to open possible negotiations for access.

IMO, this post is a great example of how things get started in a positive manner and can lead to gains in access.

Good post, great information.

Thanks!

[ericfoltz]

But, seems a good number of people have been hurt on a feature that isn't needed or natural.

Since every trail is man-made, the argument could be made that no feature is "needed or natural".

I would say that people riding trails they are unfamiliar with should probably control their speed in such a manner that they are able to identify obstacles and slow down to negotiate them safely.

If they can't ride an obstacle, they should dismount and walk around or over the obstacle.

I would hate to see what all our trails would look like if every obstacle that someone crashed on was removed.

If you want to ride "safe" trails, there are a couple of hundred miles of multi-use horse trails in OC. Please leave the ST alone.

[dstepper]

It would be nice to have some pics to help us that have not been out see what you all are talking about.

Dean

[jbh65]

There has been a lot of talk about this trail (east of Antonio and west of RMV) in the past couple days following the most recent airlift. There seems to be a difference of opinions about the legality of this trail. A lot of good dialog began in the "Rider Down" forum but I think this topic deserves its own thread for better exposure.

Here is my take on the issue and by no means is my word official, but I am pretty sure this trail is not illegal. Other than hearsay, I have never seen anything official that states this trail is closed to the public. To the contrary, the trail is listed as an official trail on the trail map produced by LARMAC (city structure of Ladera Ranch) that is posted on the city wide intranet site (www.laderalife.com) available only to residents of Ladera Ranch. I saved a copy of the map and it is attached below.

The map calls this trail out as part of the "Ladera Ranch Trail" on the far right of the map. It is clearly referring to the section of trail from the apartment complex up along the ridge above the shopping center up to Firehose and including the Firehose singletrack. That being said, the map is not clear about the part beyond the hump that continues to Pipeline and Oso.

It is also my unofficial opinion that RMV no longer owns the land that this trail occupies. Before Ladera Ranch, Antonio Pkwy and Oso Pkwy were built, the trail was a ranch access road that stretched from near Ortega Hwy to just north of where the 241 ends. When Oso was built (still pre Ladera), the access road was bisected and the hump at the top of Firehose was graded because there weren't anymore places to safely turn a truck around beyond the hump to the north. When Ladera Ranch got built, the land ownership became unincorporated Orange County and an access road was cut for the utilities on the top of the hill above the water tower. There are signs on the barbwire fence along the east edge of the trail that indicate no trespassing is allowed beyond the fence in to the valley which is still ranch owned land. I doubt the panhandle of land north of the hump between Las Flores and Tesoro HS is still owned by the ranch, although it is possible. In my opinion it is most likely county land.

There is a removable barb wire fence/gate up above the substation where the utility access road intersects with the old ranch road. Beyond the gate to the south is still RMV land. That is referred to as Lower Chiquita Ridge Road and it is illegal to ride on. The barb wire gate has been pulled down for the last couple months, but I would not recommend taking the road all the way down to Ortega.

I know that some people have posted on this forum that they have seen no trespassing signs where the trail meets Oso. I have been riding this trail multiple times per week for the past two and a half years and have never once seen such a sign. I even rode it the day someone claimed the signs were there and I saw nothing of the sort. Maybe they were confusing this trail head with some of the others off Oso near Chiquita and RMV that do have signs posted.

Until someone posts something from an official source stating this trail is off limits, I feel it is safe for us to ride it. I rode it a few days ago and the singetrack from Oso to Firehose is in great shape. Just watch out for the hump.

Questions/Comments?

August 2nd-4th of 2008 the trail head was closed right at the hump and marked property of RMVC. Sign and posts were removed and tossed over the edge.

I'm not saying that the land isn't legal or that firehose or pipeline are illegal, but I have met the cats that cut both those trails and neither trail has been there that long.

[bdegroodt]

I have pics if the group is open to me posting them. There's been requests to keep the trail off the radar and I don't want to be the guy that ruins it for everyone.

[Revalimage]

It's a 'bump' of dirt about 3.5' high with about a 45 degree angle on one side and about a 90 on the other, with no table top - a 'peak' so to speak. My son always walks over it. I did the first time too - even rolling over it is tricky, it can be a crank grabber. There is about 30'+ of trail on one side and close to 50'+ on the other, and is obviously ridden both ways - as it packed well. It does not sneak up on you if your paying attention.

I always go slow enough to stop on unknown trails, mostly because I always seem to ride alone, due to time scheduling. Yet I always seem to fall on the stuff I know very well and take my eyes of my line. This was not something that needed to be altered or signage added - just ride more responsibly... TOTALLY my opinion - I think others disagree, and that's okay. I will continue to be slow and safer.

I'm kinda bummed, was a good marker and made you slow down for the turn off.

[KeepsWhatHappens]

To shed a little more light/add a little more confusion, my official County of Orange map for Oneill as was as the less-trusted AAA maps show that Oneill Park property runs through part of Ladera Ridge.

[Doctor Hollywood]

August 2nd-4th of 2008 the trail head was closed right at the hump and marked property of RMVC. Sign and posts were removed and tossed over the edge

So which direction was being blocked off? The trail towards Oso or back to the south? As I said in my first post, the trail map only shows the south portion and Firehose as recreational trails. It would be unfortunate that section towards Oso, the best part, is not legal. Either way, I'm wating till I see something official.

[Doctor Hollywood]

Got out of work early, I am going to go ride it and I'll report back.

[mfoga]

It's a 'bump' of dirt about 3.5' high with about a 45 degree angle on one side and about a 90 on the other, with no table top - a 'peak' so to speak. My son always walks over it. I did the first time too - even rolling over it is tricky, it can be a crank grabber. There is about 30'+ of trail on one side and close to 50'+ on the other, and is obviously ridden both ways - as it packed well. It does not sneak up on you if your paying attention.

I always go slow enough to stop on unknown trails, mostly because I always seem to ride alone, due to time scheduling. Yet I always seem to fall on the stuff I know very well and take my eyes of my line. This was not something that needed to be altered or signage added - just ride more responsibly... TOTALLY my opinion - I think others disagree, and that's okay. I will continue to be slow and safer.

I'm kinda bummed, was a good marker and made you slow down for the turn off.

Thats not a bump thats a hell of a kicker to no landing. Ok I have never see it but I could see how at any speed it could be dangerous. I am not sure its purpose, but I cant see it stopping anything but a car or some trucks, if a bike can make it over I am sure a dirt bike could too. It just seems there could be a better solution. The only issue with a sign would be people would damage/remove/etc.. it. It does sound like it would be fun on a DH bike

[Singletrack Angel]

A lot of good dialog began in the "Rider Down" forum but I think this topic deserves its own thread for better exposure.

The last thing this needs is more exposure... I wish I had never posted anything about the airlift. Note to self for the future.

Just got back from riding and someone has already taken it upon themselves to "modify" the hump.

What a nightmare - this is all my fault. Sorry mountain biking community. Guess I'd better go ride it one last time before its imminent closure.