Wtf? Tdf!

[Blue Rat]

Well, I'm clean and my riding proves it.

[lkn2ryd]

Just let'em dope. Its been the way since the beginning. It will help develop wonder drugs for our Soldiers and other "Elite". Hell, viagra and cialis are available and make the average joe a super hero to someone...all I need is a cape already wearing the spandex! Oh, and I need a good Doc for my Rx.

[Reedster]

I like to think that most of them are clean. You have several teams like Columbia, Garmin-Chipotle, CSC, I think Credit Agricole who have their own anti-doping testing program and are very transparent about their tests and the results. I know that Garmin-Chipotle has invited journalists, including David Walsh who is a big critic of doping, to join the team and watch everything that they do in order to help convince them that their team is clean. Of course, the way that Christian Vandevelde is riding this tour I am a little curious about his recent improvement in the hills.

A friend pointed out to this year's Giro's final time trial as a good indicator that there is less doping. In previous years the favorites all rocked the final time trial after 3 weeks. This year all the favorites had good, but definitely not great rides in the final TT.

Let's hope that we have seen all the doping controversy for this year. Although I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Saunier Duval was doing systematic doping and it wasn't just Ricco. Time will tell. Maybe.

-R

[PacMan]

OK, I have a legitimate question:

If Lance had been doping, isn't it safe to assume he would've been caught? I'm not saying he didn't. But, I thought I read somewhere once that he was tested like 2-3 times more often than anyone else. If that's true, wouldn't he have been caught?

Especially in the latter years of his reign over the Tour. Maybe the first few he wouldn't have been caught, but I'm thinking victories 5-7 would have been under intense scrutiny.

Again--I'm not saying he didn't. I'm honestly wondering how he could've gotten away with it.

[Blue Rat]

Originally Posted by PacMan

OK, I have a legitimate question:

If Lance had been doping, isn't it safe to assume he would've been caught? I'm not saying he didn't. But, I thought I read somewhere once that he was tested like 2-3 times more often than anyone else. If that's true, wouldn't he have been caught?

Especially in the latter years of his reign over the Tour. Maybe the first few he wouldn't have been caught, but I'm thinking victories 5-7 would have been under intense scrutiny.

Again--I'm not saying he didn't. I'm honestly wondering how he could've gotten away with it.

Maybe the technology of developing/using performance enhancing drugs is way ahead of the methods of detection. It's sort of like computer viruses ... new viruses are developed all the time that the virus scanners have just not seen yet. Drug testing must be the same way, always playing catch-up.

[allison]

Originally Posted by PacMan

OK, I have a legitimate question:

If Lance had been doping, isn't it safe to assume he would've been caught? I'm not saying he didn't. But, I thought I read somewhere once that he was tested like 2-3 times more often than anyone else. If that's true, wouldn't he have been caught?

Especially in the latter years of his reign over the Tour. Maybe the first few he wouldn't have been caught, but I'm thinking victories 5-7 would have been under intense scrutiny.

Again--I'm not saying he didn't. I'm honestly wondering how he could've gotten away with it.

They didn't test for EPO in the late 90s; I don't know when they did actually start testing for it, but it wasn't too long ago (early aughts, maybe??).

I've read many places, and you can google it for specifics, but the lab kept his old samples and have since tested them for EPO and I believe they found non-negatives.

Also, don't forget that Lance had some really good trainers and doctors.

Assuming (as most might) that he did dope, he managed to stay under the radar.

I also read today on RBR that he tested positive for cortisol/cortisone (I forget which, unless they the same) once and they played it off that it was chamois cream that had been tainted.

Though most seem to believe that Lemond and his generation were pretty clean. I don't know why the guys previous and post would dope and no one in the 80s, but I'm not really knowledgeable about that.

I get most of my info from reading different conjectures, views, etc. from RBR. Some smart folks, some not so smart. Like any other forum.. you tend to pick out the ones that know what they are talking about.

Take it or leave it

[surlygal]

Originally Posted by Blue Rat

Maybe the technology of developing/using performance enhancing drugs is way ahead of the methods of detection. It's sort of like computer viruses ... new viruses are developed all the time that the virus scanners have just not seen yet. Drug testing must be the same way, always playing catch-up.

I totally agree here:
Lance has/had millions of $ backing him, his name has come up more than once in investigations where several top pro cyclists have been named....With all the doping that was going on then and all the big pros who raced against him in those tours being busted - I would find it very hard to belive he was not using *something* to enhance his performance..At the level these guys are racing unless everyone is clean - it's hard to be the best - because your racing against someone who is stonger by substance.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by Pickettt

Actually CERA's been around for some time, it's just been in court over who developed it. It's called epogen here in the US. Purportedly developed by...yes AMGEN, title sponsor of our very own Tour of California.

Not really. Epoden is a second gen. blood booster, developed by Amgen. Cera is manufactured by Roche and has just recently received FDA approval. The reason Ricco was caught is that nobody knew a test existed yet, GOTCHA DOPER!

“In the case of Mircera ─ CERA ─ thanks to the cooperation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it,” he said. “This case shows the significant work that WADA conducts in anticipating doping trends, including by closely cooperating with pharmaceutical companies at very early stages of the development of molecules or substances for therapeutic purposes to develop detection methods for anti-doping purposes.”

[JoeTruth]

Doping has been around for a long time and you can bet that if it was available during LeMond's era, he (and others) were using it. Like any competitive professional sports, athletes are always looking to get that extra edge and advantage. There is so much pressure put on athletes to perform by teams, sponsors, owners, fans, etc. and more times then not, if they think they can get away with it, they'll do it in a heart beat. Look at Baseball, for example. It was no fluke that all of a sudden Sammy Sossa, Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds looked HUGE and were slugging home runs like they were swatting flies. So effortlessly! You knew it was too good to be true and it was. I still feel Bonds' home run record should not stand but whatever. That's baseball for you.

I'm a big Lance fan but I'd be gullible and naive to claim he's been absolutely clean. Maybe he is but I highly doubt it. I think he used just enough and had good enough and smart enough trainers and doctors around him to fly under the radar.

Using Steroids and performance enhancing drugs is so easy and the results are GIGANTIC. Of course there's always going to be doping. We either need to embrace it or ban athletes for life with zero tolerance. There can be no middle gray area!

[sperminator]

Originally Posted by JoeTruth

Using Steroids and performance enhancing drugs is so easy and the results are GIGANTIC. Of course there's always going to be doping. We either need to embrace it or ban athletes for life with zero tolerance. There can be no middle gray area!

Agreed

[lkn2ryd]

As for Allison's 80's question - Fluorescent colors pulled us through with out need for enhancements. Mr. Armstrong was/is abnormal period. But if one must find a chemical - he loves his Optygen and FRS! Suck-it, Slam-it, or Snort-it cause DAAANNNGGG, it makes you feel good!

[ryanm]

Originally Posted by sdyeti

I guess it's "take the chance of getting caught and dope anyway" from the attitudes of the riders who've been caught.

For me, watching the Tour is more about the spectacle, the drama of it all...the athleticism part, well, I'd like to believe it's au natural, but that doesn't seem realistic.

I think it has become more "if I don't do it, I won't be competitive and never be in the tour in the first place so I might as well roll the dice"

[jcampbell]

Was Lance doping? I don't really know but I know he did go through Chemotherapy and that probably means he took EPO to keep his red blood cell count up. Follow the money and you'll find the cheaters and I think this is exactly how they are catching these guys. I know they are saying this on TV, but I watched the Tour for years and something is different with this years positive tests. Its like someone turned them in or they already knew they were taking it and decided to wait and bust them during their glory.

Suanier Duval sure got out of town quick... I'm surprised the government didn't hold the team in custody with their crazy laws. Either way, there are so many drugs out there in development that this issue will never go away. There's too much money in it.

[AKmoney]

Best advice given to TDF participants:

Deny 'til you die!!!

[ericfoltz]

Originally Posted by jcampbell

I know they are saying this on TV, but I watched the Tour for years and something is different with this years positive tests. Its like someone turned them in or they already knew they were taking it and decided to wait and bust them during their glory.

Suanier Duval sure got out of town quick... I'm surprised the government didn't hold the team in custody with their crazy laws. Either way, there are so many drugs out there in development that this issue will never go away. There's too much money in it.

There are ten riders that are being targeted based on previous rumors and/or blood values from the Giro.

All ten and their teams were notified on the first day of the tour.

SD didn't make it out of town quick enough. They were detained and all their vehicles searched.

[CPATCRASH]

I remember when I was going through treatment for hepatitis. I felt like shit for the first couple of weeks and then the Dr. gave me Procrit. I had to give myself shots in the stomach once a week. After about three weeks I was riding with some friends up Blackstar and I was having a hard time getting out of breath. I was flying up the climb and loving it!

A few days later my Dr. called and said to cut back from a shot every week to every other week because my red cell count was like someone who lived in the Andes and there was a possibility I could have a stroke. I was kinda bummed.

After the treatments were all finished and I was cured I still had three doses of Procrit left that my insurance company paid $750.00 each for. My wife kept asking me what I was going to do with them. I told her I was going to take one a week for three weeks before the Vision Quest.

At that point I got the look! I ended up donating them to others with the problem I had.

It would have been sweet though!

[Reedster]

Well, I still like to think that Lance didn't dope, but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he did dope. If you search on http://www.competitorradio.com/index.php you can find interviews with David Walsh and Jonathon Vaughters that talk about doping. Walsh says that Lance doped and Vaughters implies it, but doesn't come straight out and say it because "some people have lots of money and lots of lawyers" and he doesn't want to get sued. Again, I assumed he was talking about Lance.

There is a also an interview of Mark Whitehead http://www.competitorradio.com/index.php and he was a U.S. olympic cyclist who did dope and admits it. He says that everyone else did too, with the possible exception of Lemond, who I think probably doped, but he faded as EPO became prevalent and the earlier drugs didn't boost performance the same way EPO does, so maybe he didn't dope.

Now, let's look at top performers in the Tour, the Giro and the Vuelta and how many of them have come up positive:

Tour:

Riis - doper
Ullrich - doper
Pantani - doper
Lance - clean?
Landis - doper
Rasmussen (would have been) - doper
Contador - (currently invovled in Operation Puerto, but so far innocent)

Vuelta:
Vino - doper
Heras - doper
Ullrich - doper
Mancebo - did he win? anyway, he came close and is a doper
Menchov - doper and my big favorite for this tour.
Aitor - doper
Sevilla - may not have won but almost did and got busted. doper.
Casero - doper
Zulle - doper
Olano- doper
Rominger - doper
Jalabert - doper
Delgado - doper
Hamilton, Perez - both would have beens that got busted during the same race for the same offense.

Giro:
Di Luca (still under investigation but cleared on first offense)
Basso: doper
Simoni: doper
Garzelli - doper
Pantani - doper
Frigo - doper
Tonkov - doper
Rominger - doper
Gotti - doper
Berzin - doper

So there have been plenty of dopers caught. We could also look at how many Ex-US Postal guys have either been caught for doping or admitted to it:

Andreu-admitted
Vaughters-tactily admitted
Landis-doper (I actually think he got screwed, but who knows.
Hamilton-doper
Heras-doper
Beltran-doper
I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

So doping is certainly part of the culture and lots of the top guys have been busted at some point.

~R

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by jcampbell

Was Lance doping? I don't really know but I know he did go through Chemotherapy and that probably means he took EPO to keep his red blood cell count up.

This fact and the fact that Lance insists he NEVER used EPO or anything like it make me suspicious of his integrity. Of course, I do not know him, and am not familiar with his treatment, I just suspect he's not totally honest when he says "never".

As for dopers, they always find ways to "cheat the system" until the system catches up.

You find steroidal products in the urine, it's from chamois cream;

you make athletes wash their hands, they leave a bit of soap on and pee over their hands destroying everything in the urine;

nothing shows up in urine (including normal bacteria), WADA catches on and makes the athletes wash and dry their hands,

Doping tents are aware and do not let athletes pee on their hands (who knew peeing on yourself would be a problem--now some of the athletes from other countries will set the urine cup on the floor and pee into it...yes, the women), now what?

Look at Germany in the 80s, a FULL steroid program which included testing just before performances to be sure the levels were not defined as elevated by the governing bodies. Just proof that not all drug testing programs are to assure the cleanliness of the athletes so much as the detectability of the drug treatment program.