Are Endurance Sports Good For You?

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Do you honestly believe that about the East German Olympic women? If so, do you have a creditable source for this belief?

Just a few:
<LI id=cite_note-0>^ Tagliabue, John. - "Political Pressure Dismantles East German Sports Machine" - New York Times - February 12, 1991 <LI id=cite_note-1>^ Janofsky, Michael. - "OLYMPICS; Coaches Concede That Steroids Fueled East Germany's Success in Swimming" - New York Times - December 3, 1991 <LI id=cite_note-2>^ Kirschbaum, Erik. - "East German dope still leaves tracks" - Rediff from Reuters - September 15, 2000 <LI id=cite_note-3>^ Ungerleider, Steven (2001). Faust's Gold: Inside The East German Doping Machine. Thomas Dunne Books ISBN 0312269773 <LI id=cite_note-4>^ "Little blue pills and a lot of gold..." - Shorel.com <LI id=cite_note-5>^ Culture & Lifestyle: "Sports Doping Statistics Reach Plateau in Germany" - Deutsche Welle - February 26, 2003 <LI id=cite_note-6>^ "The East German Doping Machine" - International Swimming Hall of Fame <LI id=cite_note-7>^ Culture & Lifestyle: "East Germany's Doping Legacy Returns" - Deutsche Welle - January 10, 2004 <LI id=cite_note-8>^ Longman, Jere. - "East German Steroids' Toll: 'They Killed Heidi'" - New York Times - January 26, 2004 <LI id=cite_note-9>^ Harding, Luke. - "Forgotten victims of East German doping take their battle to court" - The Guardian - November 1, 2005 <LI id=cite_note-10>^ Jackson, Guy. Winning at Any Cost?: "Doping for glory in East Germany" - UNESCO - September 2006 <LI id=cite_note-11>^ "Ex-East German athletes compensated for doping" - Associated Press - (c/o ESPN) - December 13, 2006 <LI id=cite_note-12>^ "East German doping victims to get compensation" - Associated Press - (c/o CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) - December 13, 2006 <LI id=cite_note-13>^ Starcevic, Nesha. - "East German doping victims to get compensation" - Associated Press - (c/o San Diego Union-Tribune) - December 13, 2006 <LI id=cite_note-14>^ "Germany completes $4.1M payout to doping victims" - USA Today - October 11, 2007^ "East Germany’s Secret Doping Program" - Secrets of the Dead - Thirteen/WNET - May 7, 2008

[ChipsandSalsa]

Originally Posted by Nagaredama

Here is a good story about the East German sports machine. Crazy stuff!

http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_08_10_a_drug.htm

Nagadarema and Stinkyrider:
Again, I should have been more clear. I am not questioning their use of steroids, I am questioning the premature deaths.

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Again, I should have been more clear. I am not questioning their use of steroids, I am questioning the premature deaths.

Reference some of the articles I posted above. There were dozens of athletes who developed lethal tumors, permanent liver damage. hormonal imbalance etc.

[Evil Chocula]

Are there any doctors posting here?

It's generally excepted that marathons are not the best thing for you're body.

That doesn't mean running's bad for me, or that I'm going to die a slow, boring death while I east KFC three times a week right?

[ChipsandSalsa]

Originally Posted by stinkyrider

Reference some of the articles I posted above. There were dozens of athletes who developed lethal tumors, permanent liver damage. hormonal imbalance etc.

That's a lot of reading, so I skimmed and might have missed something. I am just not seeing the convincing evidence of steroid danger in comparison to other prescription and even OTC drugs.

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by Evil Chocula

Are there any doctors posting here?

It's generally excepted that marathons are not the best thing for you're body.

That doesn't mean running's bad for me, or that I'm going to die a slow, boring death while I east KFC three times a week right?

I'm going to die a slow, boring death while I east KFC three times a week right?

[ChipsandSalsa]

Evil Chocula,

I am not a doctor, nor do I claim to be an expert. I do remember an article about ten years ago in either Runner's World or Triathlete where echocardiograms were performed on some competitors in the Ironman Triathlon. There findings, as I recall, where that there were cardiovascular measurements consistent with congestive heart failure. This condition was temporary--I want to say it lasted a few months, but I am not sure.

[ChipsandSalsa]

I just remembered a story related to this issue: I took 30 units of cardiovascular physiology in college, and one of the professors told of a time he performed an echocardiogram on a student who was a long-distance runner.

This runner had an enlarged heart...People with congestive heart failure have enlarged hearts, that is, one would expect to find an enlarged left ventriclular chamber (the pumping chamber of the heart). This runner's heart however was enlarged due to cardiac wall hypertrophy, not chamber enlargement.

[bikeadict]

There are alot of things I do that are bad for me.... but riding my bike (no matter how long or how hard) is NOT one of them.

I could go on with my arguemnt to back this but I'm not going to....
I know this is the truth and thats all that matters....

[92se-r]

so what does that mean?

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

I just remembered a story related to this issue: I took 30 units of cardiovascular physiology in college, and one of the professors told of a time he performed an echocardiogram on a student who was a long-distance runner.

This runner had an enlarged heart...People with congestive heart failure have enlarged hearts, that is, one would expect to find an enlarged left ventriclular chamber (the pumping chamber of the heart). This runner's heart however was enlarged due to cardiac wall hypertrophy, not chamber enlargement.

[Evil Chocula]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Evil Chocula,

I am not a doctor, nor do I claim to be an expert. I do remember an article about ten years ago in either Runner's World or Triathlete where echocardiograms were performed on some competitors in the Ironman Triathlon. There findings, as I recall, where that there were cardiovascular measurements consistent with congestive heart failure. This condition was temporary--I want to say it lasted a few months, but I am not sure.

It's all good man , I'm planning on running the Boston in '09. I was just responding to some comments that implied a life without endurance events isn't a life worth living (and filled with KFC)... which obviously isn't true .

Originally Posted by DeeZee

I'm going to die a slow, boring death while I east KFC three times a week right?

Haha... I can't beleieve I really typed that!

[OMR]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Do you honestly believe that about the East German Olympic women? If so, do you have a creditable source for this belief?

Yes I do.

[Jslow]

Regarding the enlarged heart. I've wondered if this larger capacity for stroke volume is from the wall stretching... and not being as strong? Does the wall stretch and then regain its thickness? I've heard some scary stuff about wall thickness being too thick in athletes and the size, (in weight) was up to 30% larger but the stroke volume remained constant.

I wonder after seeing interviews with elite/pro athletes that use their fitness as part of their skill set... if they need forced breaks during the year, to keep them healthy. I also am curious what this does to their psyche as they go from producing large amount of endorphins constantly to... What are the consequences?

Interesting topic. I do agree extreme amounts of anything are usually a bad idea.

Plenty of health non doped ( I hope) people seem to sucomb to weird diseases and I wonder sometimes if a year round program with no extended breaks IS healthy?

[ChipsandSalsa]

Originally Posted by 92se-r

so what does that mean?

I am so rusty on this subject...this was about 25 years ago, but here goes: The heart is a muscle, and even though it is specialized striated muscle and not skeletal muscle, it is still capable of physiological changes in response to the demand placed upon it.

I would not put too much value into one anecdote, but the alarming part was the runner's left ventricular (LV) chamber had actually decreased in size because the walls thickened internally. This means the LV had less room to store blood during relaxation, and therefore was capable of ejecting less blood during contraction. Contrast this to typical congestive heart failure where the LV chamber is enlarged, but the heart is not strong enough to function as an adequate pump.

[slapfan1]

There is common knowledge that excercising makes you a helathier person and that eating bad and living an unhealthy life style is bad for you. PERIOD.

[bvader]

I was diagnosed with LVH (Left Ventricular Hypertrophy) just 2 months ago. First I am not an expert so maybe a doctor can comment. I did the EKG, and the Echo Cardiogram, which was pretty cool to watch.

I was told that there are several different forms of hypertrophy. Some good/ok, some not.

I was also told that that form of LVH from strenuous training also comes in 2 types. One from endurance type training what the chamber enlarges so as to be able to pump more volume vs from strength / anaerobic training where the wall thickens to increase the pressure / "explosiveness" of the beat.

I have the former. It also shows up as a slightly irregular heart beat because the large chamber takes a little longer to finish its beat. Other symptoms that I have, is an occasional irregular heartbeat, fairly low resting pulse, and pretty good VO2 Max...as expected as a result of training, many of you probably have the same.

Also there are bad LVH, your heart can be enlarged because the wall weakens and expands/stretches, thats a bad thing. Or the heart wall can thicken for other bad reasons.

Also the link between athletes dying and enlarged heart is just that its a link but not necessarily cause and effect. Often athletes have enlarged heart but the ones that die also often have some other underlying issue, Like Hank Gathers, Reggie Lewis, Flo Hyman and Ryan Shay.

BTW both my doctors just said I am very healthy and keep doing what I am doing, and also I have noticed that I and most my endurance/cycling friends look and act much younger than my non-athletic friends.

There is plenty of info out there on LVH / Athlete Heart.

Example:
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec07/ch082/ch082c.html

[Blue Rat]

In life most things should be taken in moderation ... but at the end it comes down to this:

“Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy Crap, what a ride!’"

[allison]

Originally Posted by bvader

I was diagnosed with LVH (Left Ventricular Hypertrophy) just 2 months ago. First I am not an expert so maybe a doctor can comment. I did the EKG, and the Echo Cardiogram, which was pretty cool to watch.

I was told that there are several different forms of hypertrophy. Some good/ok, some not.

I was also told that that form of LVH from strenuous training also comes in 2 types. One from endurance type training what the chamber enlarges so as to be able to pump more volume vs from strength / anaerobic training where the wall thinks to increase the pressure / "explosiveness" of the beat.

I have the former. It also shows up as a slightly irregular heart beat because the large chamber takes a little longer to finish its beat. Other symptoms that I have, is an occasional irregular heartbeat, fairly low resting pulse, and pretty good VO2 Max...as expected as a result of training, many of you probably have the same.

Also there are bad LVH, your heart can be enlarged because the wall weakens and expands/stretches, thats a bad thing. Or the heart wall can thicken for other bad reasons.

Also the link between athletes dying and enlarged heart is just that its a link but not necessarily cause and effect. Often athletes have enlarged heart but the ones that die also often have some other underlying issue, Like Hank Gathers, Reggie Lewis, Flo Hyman and Ryan Shay.

BTW both my doctors just said I am very healthy and keep doing what I am doing, and also I have noticed that I and most my endurance/cycling friends look and act much younger than my non-athletic friends.

There is plenty of info out there on LVH / Athlete Heart.

Example:
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec07/ch082/ch082c.html

I was diagnosed with that just over a year and a half ago as well. It was slightly large, not too big of a concern.

>> This, btw, was long before I was doing rides like I do now, racing at all, etc. I had just started riding, but we were doing quite a bit of riding. We had around 1700miles in 2006; our first full year of riding. I got the info in Dec of 2006. We were just barely training for Counting Coup.

I saw an electrophysiologist for my quick pulse (opposite of low resting pulse, my HR would shoot up to like 120/140 for no apparent reason) and he basically said a lot of young women have systems that are just fast; no reason for it, and nothing is really wrong. The option was to have ablation (they'd just kill off parts of the heart and see what happened, basically), or since my quality of life wasn't at all affected just leave it alone.

I still get heart flutters every now and then, but I think I had them before I started riding/exercising.

I actually have been considering getting another ECG to see if it has gotten thicker or gone closer to normal, but haven't yet.

It could very well be due to going from racing r/c cars and eating hamburgers every weekend all weekend to actually getting in the gym, lifting weights, doing karate, and eventually riding bikes a lot.

I think for me anxiety is also part of it. Can't really cure that with anything other than meds, though. Tried that and while it helped the anxiety, it made a lot of things not so good.



Another thing I think I've read is that something high level athlete's die of heart problems is because they had genetic issues that if they were a couch potato wouldn't have become apparent as it did when they stressed their systems a lot. Doesn't mean they wouldn't have had the heart attack, etc., just means it would've happened some other time IMO.