How Massachusetts Voters Killed National Healthcare

[vlad]

Ok. A healthcare thread in the Pub of STR is bound to create a fireball of a debate.

Well, seems the Republican won Ted Kennedy's seat in the Senate. This means that the Dems no longer have a filabuster majority in the Senate. Republicans made it no secret that they will use this seat to kill the healthcare reform bill.

So....

The universally insured voters of Massachusetts, a state that actually already has full universal healthcare for all of its residents, now effectively kills the national healthcare reform bill and determine that the residents of the remaining 49 states will not get healthcare reform. And to make it more absurd, its Ted Kennedy's senate seat. Ted Kennedy was the "father" or healthcare reform and fought all his life for universal healthcare coverage.

So beware mountain bikers of California, if you don't have health insurance and you get hurt in the pursuit of our noble sport you are screwed, and will continue to get screwed thanks to the voters of the great state of Massachusetts.

Sorry to rant on this but I never understood why there is any resistance to healthcare reform in the US even though I've been living here the last 30 years. Politically I actually lean republican, but I grew up in Europe in a country where all aspects of healthcare were completely free. You never paid doctors, never paid hospitals or never paid for any medicines at pharmacies. Doctors did house calls, took the time to talk to you, never rejected to treat you for anything, etc, etc. There was not even a theoretical possibility for someone to go bankrupt because of healthcare bills. Healthcare is considered a more basic human right than any other, more important than freedom or democracy. Lot of good any political right will do for you if you are dying from a disease you can't treat because you can't afford it. In Europe now if you want to threaten anyone you tell them "I'll force you to have a healthcare system like the US".

[abnfist]

OK- I am going to jump in here, just so I can fill you in on what you are talking about. I AM a resident of MA (stationed in CA) so i will let you in on the secret of the "universal health care" in MA- you pay for it... period, and if you don't have it (for whatever reason) they keep your income tax return (state) and if that doesn't work, they don't let you renew your Plates.

So if you think you are missing out on some great deal- you aren't, this is the government, they are going to stick it to the people one way or another.

[vlad]

Originally Posted by abnfist

... this is the government, they are going to stick it to the people one way or another.

That we fully agree on. The government will stick it to you. Federal Massachusetts, California....

[mpmffitz]

I predict this thread will go to 7 pages.

Great debate, down with big government, this plan was another example on how and why we must proclaim a government for the people and by the people. The insurance plan was another way American citizens were once again having to answer to the government, when the government should answer to us.

Maybe the insurance idea should be tried on the Haitians, hell we already borrowed 100 million from the Chinese to pay for our donating spirit.

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by vlad

So beware mountain bikers of California, if you don't have health insurance you may want to find a job that offers it, instead of relying on others to take care of you. You're an adult now - be responsible for yourself.

Fixed it for you.

[art23rockpile]

Well, I probably shouldn't do this, but... what the hell!
All in good fun.

The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the Coakley gang that day
Her lead was down to 2 with just a few days left to play
When the Herald gave support to Brown and others did the same
A sickly silence fell upon the Dems who watched the game

If unions swing Republican there’s got to be a reason
In any other year you’d likely see them hung for treason
But politics has turned into a very ugly scene
It seems we’ve gone way right or left, with nothing in between

The state that gave us Henry Gates, the prof who likes to spew
Was home to Alan Dershowitz, and F. Lee Bailey, too
Dukakis, John F. Kerry, Barney Frank, the list is long
Of lib’ral politicians who all sing the party song

When Nixon crushed McGovern nearly 40 years ago
The Bay State was the only state that went to George, you know
Mitt Romney was a rare exception, winning on the right
But now it looks as if Scott Brown may have a win in sight

There was ease in Scott Brown’s manner as he stepped into the race
There was pride within his bearing and a smile upon his face
And when, responding to the cheers, he slightly tipped his head
He said, “Don’t get excited yet, you guys. She’s still ahead.”

Elections last November showed the tide was swinging right
New Jersey, one the left thought safe, became a bitter fight
Jon Corzine sought a second term, but Christie was ahead
Election day, his lead held up. “Strike one”, the voters said

And then down in Virginia, Bob McDonnell beat Creigh Deeds
Another state where Democrats were struggling in the weeds
The rapid shifting left that now was coming into view
Upset Virginia voters and their ballots said “Strike two”

From the suburbs filled with people there went up a muffled roar
As those who used to simply vote are passive folks no more
They send their angry letters, call the talk show hosts to vent
They really do not like the way their money’s being spent

On Tuesday night we watched as precincts sent their ballots in
And watched the numbers tally. What to do if Brown should win?
As Martha watched returns roll in, she said, "It could be worse
Just look how long the Red Sox took to beat Bambino’s curse”

The sneer is gone from Martha’s lips, her teeth are clenched in hate
She snarls and shakes. Her heart is filled with qualms about her fate
She knows that there’s unrest. It may be more than she can handle
Will she replace the man who caused the Chappaquiddick scandal?

So once again, election night was quite an education
It’s just one state, but surely tells the feeling of the nation
So grab a beer, some chips and turn to MSNBC
And watch as Mr. Olberman hears people yell “Strike three”

Oh somewhere in this favored land, the trend is tilting right
The band is playing everywhere, and people’s hearts are light
And somewhere men are laughing and somewhere children shout
But there is no joy in Boston. Martha Coakley just struck out

[MTBMaven]

I work for government and can understand why people think that government is dysfunctional. I have also worked for a large private company and they are just as f'ed up. It's not necessarily government, it is the size of the organization that makes it hard to manage by its sheer size.

Do not be fooled into thinking that the free market is somehow your savior. When publicly traded companies have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize (short term) shareholder profit your best interest (in this care your health) will generally lose especially if doing the right thing in the long term will jeopardize short term profits.

We are not talking about buying a camera here. It is very hard for one individual to vote with their wallet therefore influencing the free market (not that there is such a thing as a free market anyway). Government must have a roll in looking out for the masses and especially for those who have no voice. Unfortunately too many in government (both Republicans and Democrats) receive too much money from health care companies to objectively do the right thing for their constituents. And when voters do not educate themselves (generally because they are lazy and apathetic towards politics and intellectual discourse in general, or are too busy working their a$$ off because they are saddled with debt because of a consumption based economy/society) they lay prey to talking heads on Fox New, CNN, MSNBC, Rush, the list goes on.

Really who is to blame? The American people for allowing these things to happen. We have the ability to vote. We can communicate with our elected officials. We can educate ourselves but watching/reading quality news (BBC America, NPR, The Economist, The Wall Street Journal). We have the ability to vote with our wallets on some issues. What bugs me is that too many people have no idea what is really going on to make informed decisions.

[Lovin]

On the bright side of things........Ted Kennedy is almost 5 months sober.

[vlad]

... and one more note at the following link:

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.c...deaths-a-year/

45,000 deaths in the US per year because of lack of healthcare.

[Pain Freak]

This is why we have a problem with a two party system ( both are corrupt ), want to make a difference. Vote outside the two party system. Our politicians don't care about what's good for their constituents, they only vote to stay within their parties voting block. This is a perfect example.

[SQRRRL]

Hows All That Hope And Change Treating You?

[vlad]

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

Fixed it for you.

Most people that don't have a job today or don't have healthcare do not have it by choice. To blame unemployment and lack of healthcare on laziness and lack of responsibility for oneself is really a bad blow to those folks that would do anything to work hard but simply can't because there are not enough jobs to go around.

There are millions of good, hard working, red white and blue Americans that have been laid off and that now can't get sick because they can't afford to.

Every human society should take care of the less fortunate.

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by SQRRRL

Hows All That Hope And Change Treating You?

I'll keep my money, freedom, and guns - you keep the change.

[vlad]

Originally Posted by MTBMaven

I work for government and can understand why people think that government is dysfunctional. I have also worked for a large private company and they are just as f'ed up. It's not necessarily government, it is the size of the organization that makes it hard to manage by its shear size.

Do not be fooled into thinking that the free market is somehow your savior. When publicly traded companies have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize (short term) shareholder profit your best interest (in this care your health) will generally loose espcially if doing the right thing in the long term will jeopardize short term profits.

We are not talking about buying a camera here. It is very hard for one individual to vote with their wallet therefore influencing the free market (not that there is such a thing as a free market anyway). Government must have a roll in looking out for the masses and especially for those who have no voice. Unfortunately too many in government (both Republicans and Democrats) receive too much money from health care companies to objectively do the right thing for their constituents. And when voters do not educate themselves (generally because they are lazy and apathetic towards politics and intellectual discourse in general, or are too busy working their a$$ off because they are saddled with debt because of a consumption based economy/society) they lay prey to talking heads on Fox New, CNN, MSNBC, Rush, the list goes on.

Really who is to blame? The American people for allowing these things to happen. We have the ability to vote. We can communicate with our elected officials. We can educate ourselves but watching/reading quality news (BBC America, NPR, The Economist, The Wall Street Journal). We have the ability to vote with our wallets on some issues. What bugs me is that too many people have no idea what is really going on to make informed decisions.

Incredibly well said!

[calzone]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...-now.html#more

Originally Posted by Andrew Sullivan @ andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com

I think the lack of insurance for 40 million people is a real issue that we have a moral duty to deal with - now. I've been deeply affected by the nightmare stories readers have sent in of the current horrors. I also think that healthcare costs under the current system are crippling and require some sort of response by, yes, government - now. And I believe there is only one adult in Washington proposing an actual solution to these problems.


...

I have yet to see a single proposal from the right that would in any way address the problem of the uninsured in America. McCain sure didn't and the GOP offers nothing. Cost control? Again, the current bill is the first one even to start to address this issue... What else would do that in any practical way in the current climate? I agree that one of the costs of reining in the healthcare industry will probably be less research, fewer new drugs, less innovation. But I cannot see a way in which the recent amazing breakthroughs will continue to occur without bankrupting the private and public sectors. And I say this as someone who has a constantly evolving retro-virus in my body trying to kill me.


The Senate bill is more moderate than the Clintons'; it has enraged the left; it won't insure everyone; it won't automatically control costs. But it's a start. It takes the problem seriously. In the real world, if this fails, there will be no reform until the country is bankrupted. The GOP has no interest in offering an alternative, just as they have no plans to cut the deficit - only plans to increase it. If this bill goes down, no Democrat will touch the issue for another decade.


I live in the real world, where these issues have to be dealt with, where a president was elected by a landslide on this very platform, and where the opposition was based not on ... utopian libertarianism but on populist rage, stoked by inflammatory claims of government take-over and communism, fed by every discontent in an economy wrecked by the Republicans.


I supported Obama to support reform in a difficult climate against enormous vested interests. I am not going to stop supporting his efforts now. And I am not going to dignify the vicious campaign against him and anything he does with the respect it has not yet deserved.

Andrew Sullivan is a conservative/somewhat libertarian columnist who supports Obama and specifically supports his health care agenda.

[simonmtb]

Originally Posted by vlad

Most people that don't have a job today or don't have healthcare do not have it by choice. To blame unemployment and lack of healthcare on laziness and lack of responsibility for oneself is really a bad blow to those folks that would do anything to work hard but simply can't because there are not enough jobs to go around.

There are millions of good, hard working, red white and blue Americans that have been laid off and that now can't get sick because they can't afford to.

Every human society should take care of the less fortunate.

Yep, if any of you out there (With in 50 miles of Idyllwild) have a job with healtcare benifits for me, I'll take it.

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by vlad

Every human society should take care of the less fortunate.

However survival of the fittest has prevailed in the animal kingdom.




Side note, sorry to all those who are currently unemployed because of the recent economic situation - for many of those, it was simple bad luck. Not sorry to the 5% (or so) of the unemployed who virtually refuse to work.

And to the mountain bikers who are uninsured - I think you're crazy. I've had to pay for hospital visits at times when I was uninsured. It's not worth taking the risks of mountain biking knowing what it could cost if you end up in the hospital. In short - mountain biking when uninsured is reckless and irresponsible. I know that's not a popular thing to say, but it is what it is.

[dirtvert]

i wouldn't read too much into this election. the party in power always suffers when the economy is down--even though it's way better than when obama was elected. and mass. independent/blue-collar voters have always voted against women for higher office. oh well...

countries generally get what they deserve. we probably deserve a few more decades of crappy health insurance.

but, really--now we have a senator who posed nude for a magazine? so much for family values. and, even sadder than that, is that he covers up his junk in the pics with his wrist. nothing to be proud of...

[art23rockpile]

Originally Posted by vlad

Most people that don't have a job today or don't have healthcare do not have it by choice. To blame unemployment and lack of healthcare on laziness and lack of responsibility for oneself is really a bad blow to those folks that would do anything to work hard but simply can't because there are not enough jobs to go around.

There are millions of good, hard working, red white and blue Americans that have been laid off and that now can't get sick because they can't afford to.

Every human society should take care of the less fortunate.

Why?
One of the very first laws of nature dictates that the strong shall survive and the weak shall perish. Natural law is never mistaken.

I choose to embrace this concept, and having healthcare is an invaluable tool, since i plan to cheat Death as long as possible. Being self-employed (with maybe 40% of the work i had 2 years ago), nobody pays for my health insurance; I do. Right now, I sacrifice much in order to have it. Health care is not an entitlement.

[ArrrKelly]

I think it's classic how the white house is blaming Coakley for the loss. And the fact that it was Kennedy's seat they lost. The timing and irony is a big blow for Obama and his agenda.