Income stats in San Diego

[ChipsandSalsa]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

Well, I see poverty as a problem to be solved. I realize there will always be poor people for some reason or another, however, I don't like to see a growing gap between the rich and the poor. The problem: crime is mostly economic.

I don't want to give handouts. I think if people could be trained to do something they enjoy, they'll be happier and their children will see that they are happier and be more likely to make better decisions about their own lives.

Edit: Yeah, what Jefferson said.

Dooder, when I asked you why you thought more education was the answer, I thought your response might be about earning lots of money and prestige. However, I was pleasantly surprised by your answer, especially the part about happiness and making better decisions.

[Pickettt]

Can everyone who believes we live in a democracy please chime in.

[sladnas]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

I am not by any means anti-education. However, it seems we have arrived at a point in society where education is deemed the answer to everything.

It has been this way for a while. If anything, events like the dot-com boom took away the value of education (at least for people looking at technology related jobs) because you didn't need one to land a job paying $60k+. You didn't even need credible work history for that matter...sounds kind of like the mortgage crisis.

Education does not answer everything, but it grants people opportunities they did not otherwise have access to. It was also a very self-empowering thing for me, at least.

College for me was more about exposure to different perspectives, different people, cultures, struggles, etc. in an environment that encouraged the explorations of such differences.

I'm not for mandated education, I just have strong opinions about it.

[Esqo]

Originally Posted by Pickettt

Can everyone who believes we live in a democracy please chime in.

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy, albeit a representative democracy.

[bikeadict]

Originally Posted by Pickettt

Can everyone who believes we live in a democracy please chime in.

All I have to say is Presidents are still elected by the Electorial College
And Congressmen / Senators re-election campains' are mainly funded by corperations and special interests...

[ChipsandSalsa]

Sladnas,

I can't really disagree with anything you have said. What I am addressing is the perception some people seem to have that if a person is employed in a manual labor or low-paying career field, it must be due to a lack of education or limited opportunities. A great many people hate being in an office, having to be in a management role, or dealing with loads of paperwork, and have chosen with perfect clarity, to bus tables, paint houses, cut lawns, etc. American culture tends to assume everyone wants to make more, do more, and have more. I feel that anyone who is happy in their chosen career has made a wise choice.

[sladnas]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Sladnas,

I can't really disagree with anything you have said. What I am addressing is the perception some people seem to have that if a person is employed in a manual labor or low-paying career field, it must be due to a lack of education or limited opportunities. A great many people hate being in an office, having to be in a management role, or dealing with loads of paperwork, and have chosen with perfect clarity, to bus tables, paint houses, cut lawns, etc. American culture tends to assume everyone wants to make more, do more, and have more. I feel that anyone who is happy in their chosen career has made a wise choice.

I agree.

[ChipsandSalsa]

Here's one version of a parable that sums up my lifestyle philosophy:

http://mrmaloney.com/mr_maloney/SHSdocs/fish_tale.html

[OffRoadie]

Originally Posted by 0gravity

This sort of work-hard, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" thinking is simply flawed and no longer relevant in today's world.

We're in a different economy in both the US and the global market. It's gotten a lot harder to simply work your way up to a better life. All the stats show it. Real wages for a broad spectrum of people in the US have not risen at all since 2000. Decades ago it was quite possible to work your way up the class ladder in the US. Those odds have plummeted. And the income disparity between rich and poor has grown obscenely large. All while prices for staple goods and services have gone up (and don't get me started on lack of health care in the US). The investor class is flush with money while average Americans and average workers get squeezed. Government policies like tax law, regulation of the financial and investment sector, and free-trade deals all have played a role in screwing low and middle income Americans.

Don't tell me my government has no role to play in reversing this trend and we should all just fend for ourselves.

I'm not saying the government has no role to play. I'm saying something different: that the government can't be counted on to fix your problems.

The only person you can count on 100% is yourself. The only things you can control effectively are the things you do. Do what you have to do to get to where you want to be. If the government manages to help in some way, consider yourself lucky, but don't count on it.

How is this "flawed thinking"? How is this "not relevant"?

[0gravity]

Originally Posted by OffRoadie

I'm not saying the government has no role to play. I'm saying something different: that the government can't be counted on to fix your problems.

The only person you can count on 100% is yourself. The only things you can control effectively are the things you do. Do what you have to do to get to where you want to be. If the government manages to help in some way, consider yourself lucky, but don't count on it.

How is this "flawed thinking"? How is this "not relevant"?

Fine. What you say above is not flawed thinking at all. But I take issue with the long-standing cultural myth in the US that this is a nation where just hard work and perseverance is all it takes to better yourself. "Pull yourself up by your boot-straps and grab that dream." It's what powered the first major waves of immigration and what populated this country.

It's quaint, I love the message, and it was half true only decades ago. But this is a changed America. There are newer, more serious institutional barriers to this working as it used to. The shocking income gap, diminished worker's rights, and laws rules and regulations increasingly being written for business, not workers or the average American. The US is on a slow decline from greatness while other countries all over the world are rising up and competing on a global scale with us and our workers.

These reasons, among others, are making it harder to only count on yourself to stay afloat, never mind get ahead in today's America. I do think there's a lot our government can do (and maybe not even mess it up) to slow the rising income gap, and relieve the squeeze on its poor and middle class citizens.

By the way, I do also appreciate hearing different points of view on here and a spirited dialog about important issues.

[lardbutt]

I think the USA still has the highest overall standard of living in the world, but there is little doubt that the semi-global ecomomy in which we live is having a negative impact on that. Minimum wage in China (up until VERY recently when inflation, currency fluctuations, and labor shortages kicked in) was about $.30/hour. Viet Nam is less than that. In comparison, our higher wages make competing with those two countries for manufactured goods VERY difficult. I work in Mexico every day and our starting wage is around $.90/hour and we find it very difficult to compete with Asia also.

And while not a zero-sum game, the new semi-global economy will benefit most those who started out with the least at the expense of those who already had the most.

I am by no means in favor of an isolationist government, but it is hard to see how a global economy can end up being a positive thing for our standard of living.

Any thoughts on this from all you people out there a lot smarter than me on this stuff??

[Esqo]

Originally Posted by lardbutt

I think the USA still has the highest overall standard of living in the world, but there is little doubt that the semi-global ecomomy in which we live is having a negative impact on that. Minimum wage in China (up until VERY recently when inflation, currency fluctuations, and labor shortages kicked in) was about $.30/hour. Viet Nam is less than that. In comparison, our higher wages make competing with those two countries for manufactured goods VERY difficult. I work in Mexico every day and our starting wage is around $.90/hour and we find it very difficult to compete with Asia also.

And while not a zero-sum game, the new semi-global economy will benefit most those who started out with the least at the expense of those who already had the most.

I am by no means in favor of an isolationist government, but it is hard to see how a global economy can end up being a positive thing for our standard of living.

Any thoughts on this from all you people out there a lot smarter than me on this stuff??

If anyone had an answer to this conundrum, they would win the Nobel Prize and be President of the U.S. There's no simple answer on how to balance our (United State's) involvement in the "global economy" all the while maintaining our high standards of living. We have already shifted to a "service" based economy, as opposed to manufacturing, which of course means losing tons of factory-type jobs (we'll never be competitive with those countries you mentioned). And this focus on service-type jobs brings us back to the original point of why education, now more than ever, is so important.

[freekengo]

I think I can sum it up to my life motto. Don't wait for the hand out, if you want it, work for it! Work could mean different thing on many different levels.

[sladnas]

Originally Posted by ChipsandSalsa

Here's one version of a parable that sums up my lifestyle philosophy:

http://mrmaloney.com/mr_maloney/SHSdocs/fish_tale.html

That was great, thanks. I have to remind myself every once in a while that in the "end" nothing really matters. The time line between birth and death is finite, and each day should be lived as such...best when served with fine company and perhaps a partner who can appreciate your core and share the trip with you.

Of course, this works against the education debate...if we're all eventually just fertilizer, why bother?

[chadster]

What would someone who views this as a horrible social injustice propose we do to fix it???

Someone already mentioned if anyone had all the answers they'd win the nobel prize. They certainly wouldn't get voted president. There are lots of things we could do if we had the will. Stuff like:

1) Spend as much on education as we do on prisons

2) Affordable health care/insurance for all

3) Rollback the new bankruptcy laws when you go broke due to medical bills (especially after your insurance screws you). MTB'ers should pay particular attention to this!

4) Get rid of income tax and tax on consumption instead

5) Invest in rebuilding our country's infrastructure which creates more jobs and increases everyone's standard of living.

6) Get out of Iraq and reinvest in protecting our own country = more jobs+less death (yes go ahead and flame me on this).

History is filled with examples of what ultimately happens to countries when the gap between the rich and the poor gets so out of wack that people at the bottom loose all hope. Everyone remembers the famous quote "let them eat cake"? Remember what happened to her shortly after?

Sure there will always be the lazy ass folks who never get ahead, but for every one of them, there are others who don't get a chance no matter how hard the claw and scratch their way through life. If we keep ignoring their plight we'll one day end up on the wrong end of the revolution.

[destroyer]

Originally Posted by lardbutt

.........

I am by no means in favor of an isolationist government, but it is hard to see how a global economy can end up being a positive thing for our standard of living.

Any thoughts on this from all you people out there a lot smarter than me on this stuff??

I was just getting ready to type this. I too am not a isolationist, but I feel we need to do something about trade. The World Trade Organization needs to be changed for starters. They need take into account quality of living with whom they trade. If we have to wing ourselves from trading with China and Taiwan so be it. Maybe raising import taxes until they can meet quality of living standards or how about this crazy idea, we start manufacturing in America again?

I worked in the manufacturing world for a while and I can't believe how much places like China can undercut a US manufacture.


In the end will pay more for the $1 cheeze nips at walmart, but there would be a lot more well paying jobs.


Democracy... Oligarchy... it's all the same in America...

[OldDogDan]

Originally Posted by 92se-r

Thoughts?

http://www.onlinecpi.org/downloads/C...Brief_2007.pdf

Well, a lot of good discussion already. My "thought" is how fortunate I am income-wise when looking at this; I'm "off-the-chart", even though I sweat the bills and my kids seem to think we're poor! And I bet that applies to almost all who are on STR. We are all very fortunate to have: a mountain bike (possibly costing more than many people's cars*), a computer, and the health and time to enjoy both.

*My riding buddy picks up his new Turner this week after breaking the frame on his '03 Klein -- (Quote "It's hard to justify spending more on a new bike than I did on my last four cars").

I, unfortunately, am not getting a new bike, but that report shows I've got way more than a lot of folks. And when I drive past them in my shiny car or SUV while they're standing at the bus stop, I too think more education money is a good thing. It gives people more choices, whether directly by marketable skills or indirectly just by opening their eyes to possibilities.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by destroyer

I was just getting ready to type this. I too am not a isolationist, but I feel we need to do something about trade. The World Trade Organization needs to be changed for starters. They need take into account quality of living with whom they trade. If we have to wing ourselves from trading with China and Taiwan so be it. Maybe raising import taxes until they can meet quality of living standards or how about this crazy idea, we start manufacturing in America again?

I worked in the manufactur