We don't kill innocents

[stinkyrider]

I thought this was a mountain biking forum?

Another STR conflagration in the making....
I'm staying out of these debates for now on. Threads like these create too much opportunity for outspoken A-holes like me to run their mouths off.

Here's some more topics I'm waiting to see threads about.
Religion vs. athiesm
pro-life vs. pro-choice
Creation vs. evolution
The origin of life
Which religion is the one true religion?
Gun control
Capital Punishment
Republicans vs. democrats
Which racial group is the best?
Immigration

It's probably a waste of bandwidth and hard disk space to debate these types of things on a mountain biking forum. No matter how good of a case either side makes, arguing this stuff is unproductive and just polarizes people to one side or the other.

[dirtvert]

has it been worth 4000+ soldiers killed , 50,000+ wounded, and 25,000+ post traumatic stress syndrome. and we should keep repeating those numbers for how long?

and let's not forget: about 100,000 iraqi civilians have been killed, and millions displaced. they were innocent victims also, guilty of nothing more than being born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[mtnbikerfred]

Click.

[northshore]

...I wish.....

[G-Ride]

New press release from Al-Qaeda's SoCal cell: "We don't ride illegal trails, nor can we condemn our Muslim brothers who do."

p.s. something my dad taught me: avoid discussions in pubs involving religion and politics. They get nowhere but bad.

[mouse jockey]

Originally Posted by JoeTruth

Without a doubt, there is no justification for killing people; let alone killing innocent people. That being said, it's sad to read some of your stereo typical comments directed towards Islamic people and Middle Easterns. Yes, some horrible things have been done but keep in mind, the extremest are in the minority and the majority of Muslims, don't agree nor support terror.

People are so naive and see things in such a one dimensional perspective.

Hey Joe! I don't really think your comment is directed towards my post but just to clarify a bit:

No doubt you speak truth here JT and I don't claim to know a lot but I do have a sense of my own limitations and one dimensional naivety from a nationalist jingoistic POV is not one of them.

It's really not the so called "rank and file" Muslim that determines the actions to consequences being spoken here. It's the leader's ideas put in motion, and frankly I'm not entirely put at ease that the leaders share the "rank and file" non extremist view that we may hold as a major view. The video I linked demonstrates that to a point, not entirely of course, but to a point.

My point posting the video is not to condemn Muslims in general but to point out an expert in sharia, (sharia is much greater than just Muslim law) says in effect "All Muslims are innocent." If that view is truly held by most leaders then the statement "We don't kill Innocents" can be justified. Therefore, the only intended targets are non-Muslims and 9/11, the bus and the train bombings are legitimate targets in the leader's eyes if not the "rank and file" eyes.

Choudry in the beginning states "When WE mean innocent." We means whom? I would suspect those who know Islamic theology and are Muslim but this is only speculation since he doesn't clarify that.

So, according to the OP's original title to the post "We don't kill innocents", this is true if "innocent" is defined as Muslim. Non-Muslims stand condemned already, at least by this particular expert, by being outside that Venn diagram.

I'm just being a messenger without trying to add my own commentary or invective.

Peace Brother!

[art23rockpile]

Originally Posted by G-Ride

New press release from Al-Qaeda's SoCal cell: "We don't ride illegal trails, nor can we condemn our Muslim brothers who do."

p.s. something my dad taught me: avoid discussions in pubs involving religion and politics. They get nowhere but bad.

WTF?!

[wgb]

In the words of that great American martyr.............

"...CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?" Rodney King, LA 1992

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by JoeTruth

Without a doubt, there is no justification for killing people; let alone killing innocent people. That being said, it's sad to read some of your stereo typical comments directed towards Islamic people and Middle Easterns. Yes, some horrible things have been done but keep in mind, the extremest are in the minority and the majority of Muslims, don't agree nor support terror.

People are so naive and see things in such a one dimensional perspective. Our government commits the biggest atrocities every single day but you seldom hear about it. Innocent men, women and children are assassinated in the name of war and freedom in the west. I'm sorry, there is no right and wrong here. It's all a loose-loose situation. Some of you need to open-up your eyes and see the world beyond the good ol' US of A and realize the struggles of other cultures and countries who get our "biased democracy" rammed down their throats. Live and let live.

Lastly, I think our government should be much more concerned with countries who have or are developing Nuclear threats (i.e. Iran, North Korea and even Israel.)

If you want read an extreme opposite perspective, check out Al Jazeera news...
http://english.aljazeera.net/English

Very true, the stereotypes are often not accurate in reference to the Islamic world broadly defined. It is a massive understatement to describe the countries in the middle east as highly complex and fragmented.

But the catalyst for this thread was a statement from a senior Al Queda leader. So I'd assume that most views expressed are directed at that individual's statement and the organization he represents, not the Islamic world in general.

And within that context, I'm quite comfortable using moral criteria to divide the participants in this conflict into two camps. We are the good guys, and they are the bad guys, and I don't think that depends on one's "perspective" of the situation. But nobody (or country) can claim absolute moral purity. What I find bizarre are people who can't or are reluctant to make any distinction of this sort.

This does not clarify what exactly we should DO in terms of foreign policy and/or military involvement. That is an important and fascinating topic that I actually enjoy discussing/debating with others.

R

[BobBurnes]

I've always disagreed with the mind set that we,friends or family, shouldn't discuss issues that may be upsetting. I've always enjoyed listening to another perspective. It adds color to my world and it allows me to investigate new possibilities.

It's not that I'm a man without a solid foundation, it's just I appreciate the thoughts and ideas of others to either help solidify mine or explore the possibility of another mind set. (For example, my ideas on integrity are never up for discussion, but I've since been convinced that BBQ sauce on pizza is awesome.)

Besides, if I had to stick to conversations where I only agree with the speakers...I'd be alone for a very very long time. And I've been alone for a very very long time before and it turns out there are times I can't even agree with me.

I'm very happy to see that we can have these kinds of discussions.

[Elisheva]

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is that Americans do not read or speak Arabic and thus, they do not know what is written in the Koran. If you read the Koran or have someone translate for you, you will find that Islam calls for total anhiliation of all Infidels. Infidels are Jews, Christians, and other moderate-muslims. To simplify, EVERYONE who is not them. By the way, they regard all Americans as "Christians" whether or not they are religious.

So it all boils down to a simple thing: either join them in the "Holy War" of killing and murdering (Jihad) or be killed by them.

My personal opinion is this: you don't negotiate with evil, you destroy it before it destroys you.

I respect anyone else's views on this topic. This just happens to be mine, and I apologize as this is a mtn biking forum, but we are in "the Pub," and I had to put in my two cents.

[Blue Rat]

Originally Posted by Elisheva

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is that Americans do not read or speak Arabic and thus, they do not know what is written in the Koran. If you read the Koran or have someone translate for you, you will find that Islam calls for total anhiliation of all Infidels. Infidels are Jews, Christians, and other moderate-muslims. To simplify, EVERYONE who is not them. By the way, they regard all Americans as "Christians" whether or not they are religious.

So it all boils down to a simple thing: either join them in the "Holy War" of killing and murdering (Jihad) or be killed by them.

My personal opinion is this: you don't negotiate with evil, you destroy it before it destroys you.

I respect anyone else's views on this topic. This just happens to be mine, and I apologize as this is a mtn biking forum, but we are in "the Pub," and I had to put in my two cents.

Well said ...

[dirtvert]

but that one goes both ways:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...

Matthew 10:34

and there are pages of other references to killing, smiting, slavery, stoning, etc. they could be viewed as outdated or used as propaganda against us...

edit: but i'm really not trying to start a bible-pissing contest

[92se-r]

I'm so glad someone had the balls, or ovaries ( ) to say this. No one likes to talk about this because it isn't PC and doesn't fit our hippie loving society.

A close friend of mine was born and raised in Afghanistan. The stuff she has seen and lived through will curl your toes and give you a whole new perspective on what life means over there. Life is cheap and barbaric over there. Last time she was there visiting, she was kidnapped and almost killed, had she not been able to get away. JUST because someone recognized her as being related to someone else in a rival tribe. Females are treated as dirt there. It is regular practice to beat the crap out of the females.

If this is the type of society we should be "embracing" and learning to "understand", WOW. I don't know what to say.

Am I saying all Muslims are bad? No, I have a few close friends that are Muslim. I'm just saying their attitude about life is completely different from what we as a society look at life. When innocents die, they don't widely condemn it because it just happens all the time there from all the tribal warfare and Sunni vs Shiite fighting.

What it comes down to is, violence in the name of Islam has been happening FAR before W came around. For some of you to blame him or even OUR actions is pretty narrowsighted IMO. There is no easy solution because they will never come around to our view on life, and we will hopefully never come around to seeing how they view life. So in the meantime, I'm glad that we are bringing the fight to them, instead of having the fight on our soil like 9/11. You can't refute the evidence that there hasn't been another attack like 9/11 on our soil for the last 7 years. And you know they are trying.

Have we caused innocent casualties? Yup, but war sucks. By and large, I would venture a guess that 99.99% of our servicemen are just like you and I, who would go out of their way to avoid innocent casualties. I can't say the same for the insurgents.

So in closing.................IN BEFORE THE LOCK.

Originally Posted by Elisheva

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is that Americans do not read or speak Arabic and thus, they do not know what is written in the Koran. If you read the Koran or have someone translate for you, you will find that Islam calls for total anhiliation of all Infidels. Infidels are Jews, Christians, and other moderate-muslims. To simplify, EVERYONE who is not them. By the way, they regard all Americans as "Christians" whether or not they are religious.

So it all boils down to a simple thing: either join them in the "Holy War" of killing and murdering (Jihad) or be killed by them.

My personal opinion is this: you don't negotiate with evil, you destroy it before it destroys you.

I respect anyone else's views on this topic. This just happens to be mine, and I apologize as this is a mtn biking forum, but we are in "the Pub," and I had to put in my two cents.

[92se-r]

Wow, you completely took that out of context and didn't quote the rest of it.

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Jesus was trying to say everything wasn't going to be all hunky dory and easy by giving your life to him. YOu would cause divisions even within your family because some of your loved ones will choose not to believe in Christ.

Nice try.

Originally Posted by dirtvert

but that one goes both ways:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...

Matthew 10:34

[reflux]

Originally Posted by 92se-r

If this is the type of society we should be "embracing" and learning to "understand", WOW. I don't know what to say.

Other than demonstrating social and religious tolerance towards other cultures, what is our option? If the answer is westernize and convert them to Christianity, I am afraid that will simply compound the Middle East's distaste for the West.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by mechmann

oh man...

can't read this thread anymore. hate it when people start going into specifics on religion. bunch of zealots...

That's why I altered the initial post, obviously it didn't work.

[reflux]

Originally Posted by mechmann

oh man...

can't read this thread anymore. hate it when people start going into specifics on religion. bunch of zealots...

I am actually quite happy discussing religion: it's a fascinating topic with no shortage of opinions. Where discussions usually go wrong is when religion and politics are mixed. This topic and thread so tough to deal with is that the war is both political and religious, both sides being guilty.