Avid Code vs. Hope M4

[stinkyrider]

I'm in the market for new DH/FR brakes. The Hayes Mags just aren't cutting it for me. They seem to lack the power and modulation I am looking for. Some days on steeper slopes it seems as though I need to apply the Kung Fu death grip onto the levers to stop or even slow down. I am running the BFL levels and 8" rotors and the brakes have recently been bleed by a mechanic. I also sand my pads every so often. I still feel like they are way lacking in power next to the other manufacturers I have tried like Hope and Formula.

I am by no means a brake aficionado so I was looking for some input from all of you.

Anyways, I had two specific brakes in mind.
The Hope M4 which I can get at Jenson in-store at Corona for $358 for the pair which includes 8" rotors, adapters etc. At least that's what was quoted to me in the store this Saturday. I believe it was the 2007 model with the rotors that look like a skil saw blade.

Or...

I can pick up some brand new 2008 Avid Codes (in retail box) on Ebay for a "buy it now" price of $359 plus shipping. This includes front & rear plus 8" rotors and adapters etc. The 2008's at Jenson were $230 a piece so Ebay is the obvious choice since I don't mind taking the extra risk that comes with shopping on Ebay.
I still need to call other shops like the Path to get a quote on the Codes.


I have tried the M4's and they are really nice. I have not tried the Codes but I've heard nothing but great reviews. The one thing that is putting me slightly towards the Codes is that spare parts, pads, and service are much more available. Plus I heard some people say that Hopes are a nightmare to bleed.

I'm on the fence here. Someone sway me to one side or the other please. Your input is appreciated.

Oops...Sorry if this should have been in the work shop category.

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by stinkyrider

I'm in the market for new DH/FR brakes. The Hayes Mags just aren't cutting it for me. They seem to lack the power and modulation I am looking for. Some days on steeper slopes it seems as though I need to apply the Kung Fu death grip onto the levers to stop or even slow down.

Ya know, if you don't use the brakes so much, you may go faster.

Sorry, otherwise I can't help you. Hayes Mags and Avid Juicy 7 brakes work fine for me. But I may not be going as fast. Or maybe I'm just not using the brakes as much (although it is a consideration - using brakes probably feels better than hitting trees).

Realistically, though, I can't say I've seen complaints about either of those brakes other than they work so damn well. You probably can't go wrong with either of them. But that's an uneducated guess. And both of the prices you quoted seem damn good! Tough decision! Good luck, and post back here with your decision.

[FoShizzle]

Hope M4s are great brakes (I have M4s on back of one of my bikes) but the Codes will definitely be burlier and more powerful. Not to take anything away from M4s, but the Codes can be pretty insane. If you really want DH then probably Codes. They are super heavy if that matters, but who cares. The Hopes that would be comparable in power would be the V2s, not the M4s. The M4s are likely powerful enough and modulate great but I dont know how heavy you are or how your ride but if true DH, the Codes would be my choice.

[DownhillWebKook]

I think Hopes are pretty much the ultimate stoppers, but I find myself preferring the Hayes Mag 9 brakes over all others (I have ridden Hopes, Maguras, Hayes, Saints, XT, and Grimeca on my own rigs). I think they are optimal when factoring in performance, price, and maintainability.

I can recall a time, however, when I was running those brakes (the Hayes) and they just didn't seem to "have it." I guess I had the same sort of feeling about the Kung Fu Death Grip.

Later, I realized that you should never find yourself needing such a grip nor should you ever expect the brakes to really just stop you. They're not light switches you know?

So, I guess you could go out and snag some new brakes, but I think you'll be disappointed that you spent all the money only to find that you're just gripping a little less to still find yourself a bit out of control.

Nevertheless, it's cool to get new stuff and see how it works. Sometimes it's just the subtle differences in the equipment that makes the difference.

[MTBMaven]

Stinkyrider,

I have a set of Hope brakes for sale, $200 for the whole kit and caboodle.

Front Hope M4
Rear Hope Mono Mini
200mm 2 piece rotor
180mm 2 piece rotor
180mm 1 piece rotor
160mm 1 piece rotor
20mm adapter (x2)

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

Ya know, if you don't use the brakes so much, you may go faster.

Sorry, otherwise I can't help you. Hayes Mags and Avid Juicy 7 brakes work fine for me. But I may not be going as fast. Or maybe I'm just not using the brakes as much (although it is a consideration - using brakes probably feels better than hitting trees).

Realistically, though, I can't say I've seen complaints about either of those brakes other than they work so damn well. You probably can't go wrong with either of them. But that's an uneducated guess. And both of the prices you quoted seem damn good! Tough decision! Good luck, and post back here with your decision.

I'll be the first to admit that I suck at DHing, but I like it and I have the desire to get good enough so I don't have to slam on the brakes so much. After some days of DHing (i.e. mammoth), I feel like I have arthritis or something.
When I try my buddy's Hopes, they feel great.

MTBHaven, that's a damn bargain. What year are those M4's? Condition? Already prebled? Pad Wear? Could you post some pics please?

[RacinJason]

I have Hope M4s and Juicy 7s and Juicy 5s I have Avid Code brakes on one of our F5s. I have had great results from the Juicy 5 for the price.
As far a performance nothing beats the hope brakes the Juicy 7s I have seem to work way better then the Code's . The Avide Code brakes that we have do not work well. Have bled them 2 times they work great for a while then fade.
The pistons seem to stick within the calipers that makes them a little harder to bleed and set up correctly. I might just have a bunk set .
The new XT brakes are on a lot of our demo bikes. Though they are not DH brakes they have great modulation and smooth stopping power.
The set up on the XT cam be tricky but when they are set up they are maintenance free. The XT are also quieter than the Avid Juicy's .

So if price is no object get the hope moto brakes they are heavy but work great.
M4s work great and weigh a little less. Hope adapters are a little difficult to set up some times. Well worth it though. You might want to check out the new Formula line they look like they might be the next hot set up. I looked at them at inter bike. I can't say anything good about the avid codes yet I will give them another try and see.

[CalEpic]

Codes will most likely be stronger than M4's. In Hopes, the M6's or new Motos would be a better bet for downhill. I have the M4's on one of my bikes and they are very stong and modulate well. I just don't think they'll match the stopping power of the Codes.

As far as bleeding. Hope is far and away the easiest of them all. Pads for M4's are cheap and easy to find. They use the old Shimano XT pads. The pads can be removed from the top of caliper which really makes it easy to replace. You could even replace the pads without removing the wheel if you wanted to.

C

[stinkyrider]

Thanks for the Feedback everyone.

You all have me leaning towards the Hopes now. As far as weight goes, the Hayes Mags are already pretty heavy and I don't think they're any lighter than the Codes or M4's. I'm already riding a 46 lbs Kona Stinky and adding a few grams will be hardly even noticeable.

I'm still on the fence though.
I'd love to hear from someone who has had a good experience with their Avid Codes.

The Shimanos are damn good breaks from the personal testimony I have heard. I have even parking lot test ridden them and they feel damn nice. But I don't really want to hassle with the center lock rotor BS.

[Rockinthecasbah]

My nine hd's stop fine when Im freeriding and Dh I loose traction way before I would need more braking forse or modulation I could not be happier with them have you always been unhappy with yours or do they just need freshend up

[Stray_Bullit]

I have the Avid Codes... I love them. They are a great brake and IMHO you will not be disapointed with those as your decision. I can't compare them to the Hopes, so my opinion is biased. I just wanted to say the my brakes are fantastic. I also love the fact that you can adjust where your brake makes contact with the pad.

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by Stray_Bullit

I have the Avid Codes... I love them. They are a great brake and IMHO you will not be disapointed with those as your decision. I can't compare them to the Hopes, so my opinion is biased. I just wanted to say the my brakes are fantastic. I also love the fact that you can adjust where your brake makes contact with the pad.

Have you ever had any problems or difficulties with the Codes at all? How long have you owned them?
What kind of brakes were you running before you got the Codes?

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by stinkyrider

After some days of DHing (i.e. mammoth), I feel like I have arthritis or something.
When I try my buddy's Hopes, they feel great.

Here's a different line of thinking.

First, let's assume that you have fresh, non-contaminated pads, and freshly cleaned and sanded rotors. You already said that your brakes were recently bled. In other words, you Mags are working as good as they could.

I generally prefer to have my brake levers engage relatively close to the grip. Many people have theirs set up to engage far away from the grip. When I ride these bikes - or brakes set up in this manner - my hands get really fatigued very quickly - much more so that when the brake levers engage closer to the bar.

Additionally, consider where your levers are positioned on the handlebars relative to the grips. Many shops or people install the levers right next to the grip. When using one or two finger braking, you are grabbing the lever closer to the pivot rather than at the outer part of the lever where you can get more leverage. I always install my levers about 3/4" - 1" away from the grip, so that when I use one or two fingers, I grab the lever where I can get maximum leverage. Shorter grips, such as some of the lockons, require more space.

For me, the diameter of grips also have a large role in arm, wrist, and hand fatigue. Again, some people prefer large grips, whereas some others prefer small diameter grips. Again, if I use large grips, I get badly fatigued very quickly.

These little setup points may be subtle, but to me, they are huge. Maybe you haven't found your ideal setup yet.
Consider these thoughts, and maybe your exisiting components can be set up to work for you, and hopefully, your only cost may be some new grips (larger or smaller).

[DownhillWebKook]

Yeah, this is a really good point here. Having the position of the actual brakes and the levers set up properly makes a huge difference. A lot of people set up their brakes to be comfortable when they are on flat ground. If you're riding dh, that setting is not good and will lead to discomfort and fatigue. Think about how you're going to be oriented on a descent or in the attack position and adjust position accordingly.

A really kick ass upgrade for your existing brakes is some Dangerboy levers. They are a huge improvement in both looks and performance and they're only $65. That's a lot cheaper than a set of Codes or Hopes. Of course, I understand about getting new gear. I love cool new sh!t so don't let anyone stop you there.

Oh, you also mentioned Mammoth. That place is pretty gnarly and difficult to get traction, period. There are no brakes that will save you there so don't feel too bad.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

Here's a different line of thinking.

First, let's assume that you have fresh, non-contaminated pads, and freshly cleaned and sanded rotors. You already said that your brakes were recently bled. In other words, you Mags are working as good as they could.

I generally prefer to have my brake levers engage relatively close to the grip. Many people have theirs set up to engage far away from the grip. When I ride these bikes - or brakes set up in this manner - my hands get really fatigued very quickly - much more so that when the brake levers engage closer to the bar.

Additionally, consider where your levers are positioned on the handlebars relative to the grips. Many shops or people install the levers right next to the grip. When using one or two finger braking, you are grabbing the lever closer to the pivot rather than at the outer part of the lever where you can get more leverage. I always install my levers about 3/4" - 1" away from the grip, so that when I use one or two fingers, I grab the lever where I can get maximum leverage. Shorter grips, such as some of the lockons, require more space.

For me, the diameter of grips also have a large role in arm, wrist, and hand fatigue. Again, some people prefer large grips, whereas some others prefer small diameter grips. Again, if I use large grips, I get badly fatigued very quickly.

These little setup points may be subtle, but to me, they are huge. Maybe you haven't found your ideal setup yet.
Consider these thoughts, and maybe your exisiting components can be set up to work for you, and hopefully, your only cost may be some new grips (larger or smaller).

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by DownhillWebKook

Yeah, this is a really good point here. Having the position of the actual brakes and the levers set up properly makes a huge difference. A lot of people set up their brakes to be comfortable when they are on flat ground. If you're riding dh, that setting is not good and will lead to discomfort and fatigue. Think about how you're going to be oriented on a descent or in the attack position and adjust position accordingly.

A really kick ass upgrade for your existing brakes is some Dangerboy levers. They are a huge improvement in both looks and performance and they're only $65. That's a lot cheaper than a set of Codes or Hopes. Of course, I understand about getting new gear. I love cool new sh!t so don't let anyone stop you there.

Oh, you also mentioned Mammoth. That place is pretty gnarly and difficult to get traction, period. There are no brakes that will save you there so don't feel too bad.

Good luck.

Already tried the Dangerboy gripped levers. I like the feel of the BFL's much better. The BFL's seem to provide better leverage and fit my fingers better.

[TURNERob]

I have the new Hope M6's and they are by far the best brakes I've ever used. I've also got M4's on another bike and they very good also but the power of the M6 is absurd. They also modulate very well for having so much power. The feel of the new moto lever and the adjustment is excellent also. As Craig mentioned the Hope brakes are very simple to bleed, just like bleeding car brakes. They aren't cheap but I think they are worth every penny, they perform so well and not to mention they are the best looking brakes if you ask me.

[stinkyrider]

Originally Posted by mechmann

i have not ridden them, but would love to hear about the new Hope Motos. super pricey, but they look soooo sweet!

http://www.hopetechusa.com/voir_mvvf.html

Happy_Gilmore has those on his Iron Horse Sunday. I have only ridden them on a flat paved surface for a about five minutes. In the limited amount of time I have ridden them, they are indeed f-ing sweet. They are similar in feel to the M4's, but slightly more powerful. They make a faint yet extremely high pitched squeal when they heat up on long downhills though. Like super high frequency pitch.

[stinkyrider]

Ok, here’s a brake update and I need to determine if this is a fair value trade.

Happy_Gilmore has a offered me trade:

MY:
2006 Hayes Mags with BFL levers and 8” rotors (bought in July 07 have about 12 days of riding on them) Freshly bled.
And
My spare 2006 Marzocchi 888VF 170 mm (lightly used. Only one single blemish on the lowers). Absolutely no external rebound or compression adjustments.

FOR HIS:
2006 Hope M6 front brake with 8” floating rotor with Goodridge braided lines.
2006 Hope M4 rear brake with 8” floating rotor with Goodridge braided lines.
I have tried these brakes when they were on his Giant Faith and I am aware that they are in great condition. They deliver enough braking power to stop a truck.

[FONT=&quot]I think asking for the brakes as well as the fork is a bit much. I know I risk becoming the STR ultra-naïve super-noob by asking these questions but would you all deem this as a fair trade?
Thank you all for the advice you have given me so far. Your input is greatly appreciated.
[/FONT]

[CalEpic]

Originally Posted by stinkyrider

Ok, here’s a brake update and I need to determine if this is a fair value trade.

Happy_Gilmore has a offered me trade:

MY:
2006 Hayes Mags with BFL levers and 8” rotors (bought in July 07 have about 12 days of riding on them) Freshly bled.
And
My spare 2006 Marzocchi 888VF 170 mm (lightly used. Only one single blemish on the lowers). Absolutely no external rebound or compression adjustments.

FOR HIS:
2006 Hope M6 front brake with 8” floating rotor with Goodridge braided lines.
2006 Hope M4 rear brake with 8” floating rotor with Goodridge braided lines.
I have tried these brakes when they were on his Giant Faith and I am aware that they are in great condition. They deliver enough braking power to stop a truck.

[FONT=&quot]I think asking for the brakes as well as the fork is a bit much. I know I risk becoming the STR ultra-naïve super-noob by asking these questions but would you all deem this as a fair trade? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you all for the advice you have given me so far. Your input is greatly appreciated. [/FONT]

If you don't need the fork, I'd go for it. It's a little steep but cheaper than buying a new set of brakes.

C