MT. Wilson Shuttle service

[Pain Freak]

I know what you mean Joe. Again, no easy answer to this. I'm leaning to the side of a no shuttle service as I'm concerned that an over used trail will become even more so. The bottom section is the only real part that gets over used as most don't go all the way up. Most the fast DH types are going real early which helps, but we still have a lot of guys bombing the trails.

It's very disheartening to come up on a hiker and pull over to then have them read you the riot act because of what some careless jerk did right before you came along. They really don't even notice that you've pulled over to give them the right of way, they just want you to know they're pissed. And rightfully so. I've hiked where mtb'ers play and it's no fun to have person on a bike approaching you at mach one and they are not even considering slowing down. It's not a good feeling and I don't blame them one bit about being pissed. I don't blame the dh crowd or big bikes, but it seems the shuttle guys have a tendency to not care as much.

There I said it, and I got my flame suit on.

[jcampbell]

Originally Posted by Dino Brown

Thanks for the input Tin! All I can say is I HOPE you are correct. While I do support the idea behind the shuttle service, I firmly believe it will attract more riders. Ask the people who rode today. Many said they would be willing to pay $20 for the shuttle.

Soo may other trails (that are DH friendly)? Not so sure. I really don't like Fontana. Big Bear is closed! Mt. Baldy That never happened. San Juan is a freeway! Mammoth "ain't" that close! Many of the "other" trails are either short or one is forced to push for a long time!

What really scares me are the BONEHEADS who have no respect for themselves, the safety of others or the mountain! Did you know some of those guys (many who are cool people) complete the trail in a little over an hour? That is scary fast!

On today's ride, there was a lady-hiker who did not appreciate mountain bikers. She was counting the number of riders in our group! I was 13! Ya' know how I know? Because SHE told me so!!!

Just imagine how happy she would be if a shuttle dropped 15 bikers off every hour?

Last thing- I spoke with (2) hikers today who told me, "they no longer hike on weekends.." you know the reason!

Tin- Your input was most appreciated. Hope our exchanges lead to something positive...

P.S.- If others were 1/2 the gentleman MOTT is on the trail... Let's just say, we would not be having this discussion!

P.P.S.- Best wishes to the shuttle guy! May sound hypocritical- I may indeed catch a ride with you someday!

Dino, don't you ride an IronHorse? Isn't it some magical bike that turns the ordinary, into the extraordinary Sam Hill type legend? I don't want to hear you being in 13th. And aren't you already cool Dino?

[sheclimbs]

Originally Posted by jcampbell

The climbing rider or hiker always has the right away. We all should ride within our limits when there are blind corners and areas with low visabiliy. One thing that I never hear out here in california is "Rider... Rider Up... or Rider Down." People just come through conrers and bam, you end up hitting each other.

Got to challange you on this one, I have ridden with the majority of people who participated on this Wilson Shuttle ride, and on many other rides in the San Gabs, I've probably heard all of them shout their rider, rider up...and they are also most conscious of the hikers and the equestrians. Pain Freak, Dino Brown, STJunkie, Sprokethead, Slowspokes, just to name a few...

I think the fact that someone suggested that such a large group should probably split up into smaller groups so as not to overwhelm everyone else on the trail is a perfect example of respecting / sharing the trails with everyone else out there.

It's our responsibility to encourage fellow riders to play by the rules, I have trouble believing more traffic on congested trails is going to help the situation. Just my opinon but then again, I like to climb.

[jcampbell]

Originally Posted by sheclimbs

Got to challange you on this one, I have ridden with the majority of people who participated on this Wilson Shuttle ride, and on many other rides in the San Gabs, I've probably heard all of them shout their rider, rider up...and they also most conscious of the hikers and the equestrians.

It's our responsibility to encourage fellow riders to play by the rules, I have trouble believing more traffic on congested trails is going to help the situation. Just my opinon but then again, I like to climb.

Totally understand... I have only been up to the gabes twice... I was more commenting on where we ride in OC. I just don't hear it that much as I did in Texas.

[sheclimbs]

Originally Posted by jcampbell

Totally understand... I have only been up to the gabes twice... I was more commenting on where we ride in OC. I just don't hear it that much as I did in Texas.

come up and ride with us in the Gabs more often, try it, you'll like it!

[ka0t1c07]

Well, Upper Merrill dont usually get hikers and If you start early you will most likely see a soul. I always stop and let them by and always gets good results, even with 6+ riders. All you have to do is show some teeth and let them by. If they insist in letting you by, tell them how many is behind you. I come across boneheads that just ride and dont give a damn on giving me the 411 on whats going on. Well no matter what, Bikers are always the bad guys to hikers and Eques. As for the Highway patrools on Angeles crest HWY, they target the motorcycles more then the cars and cars with bikes on them are the less targeted ones. I know, I went above the speed limit many times up there and they look the other way, the way of the motor bikes.

Tin

[Shu]

I have yet to been yelled at or given sh*tty looks by hikers but do get it from mtb climbers...even when stopping and letting them go...I think the climbers dislike the DH'ers more then the hikers....
I'd support the shuttle service...but if I ran it I would limit my runs to the top and the times to TRY and avoid the bulk of the mtb climbers and hikers...which in turn wouldn't make it to profitable especially at $3.50 a gallon....

15 riders at $7 is $105...van getting 10mpg w/ trailer and the turn around if I remember is 30+miles...doesn't leave much room for cost of ins and the whole reason for the service "Profit"....

[mottmcfly]

Originally Posted by sheclimbs

Got to challange you on this one, I have ridden with the majority of people who participated on this Wilson Shuttle ride, and on many other rides in the San Gabs, I've probably heard all of them shout their rider, rider up...and they are also most conscious of the hikers and the equestrians. Pain Freak, Dino Brown, STJunkie, Sprokethead, Slowspokes, just to name a few...

I think the fact that someone suggested that such a large group should probably split up into smaller groups so as not to overwhelm everyone else on the trail is a perfect example of respecting / sharing the trails with everyone else out there.

It's our responsibility to encourage fellow riders to play by the rules, I have trouble believing more traffic on congested trails is going to help the situation. Just my opinon but then again, I like to climb.

While we did split into smaller groups I volunteered to run up the trail first to either stop at a particularly hairy section or to warn hikers that we were coming down. Whichever occurred first. I ran into two hikers that were more than happy to give me the right of way. I told them no, I would just kind of hang behind them as they walked as I wanted to warn a much bigger group that they were there. While I was exchanging small talk, one of us ran up on me and yelled "watch the trail!" well that went over great. the two nice hikers dove to the side totally surprised as did I. Once everyone passed after that particular rider they looked at me and were like "well?" So I passed them with an apology, they said nothing in return.

My point? 25 of us and it only takes one instant. that also means that the guy that almost ran a hiker over last week makes us look bad too. It's just human nature to remember the bad.

[Tedroy]

... but what if you shuttled hikers as well? Could that dampen the negatives? I bet there would be great conversation on the way up!

[mottmcfly]

Originally Posted by Shu

I have yet to been yelled at or given sh*tty looks by hikers but do get it from mtb climbers...even when stopping and letting them go...I think the climbers dislike the DH'ers more then the hikers....
I'd support the shuttle service...but if I ran it I would limit my runs to the top and the times to TRY and avoid the bulk of the mtb climbers and hikers...which in turn wouldn't make it to profitable especially at $3.50 a gallon....

15 riders at $7 is $105...van getting 10mpg w/ trailer and the turn around if I remember is 30+miles...doesn't leave much room for cost of ins and the whole reason for the service "Profit"....

Maybe it was that "I hate Hikers" Jersey you were wearing.

[genusmtbkr5]

I guess somewhere on this thread we were suppose to welcome you to the site.

[Tedroy]

Welcome to the site...


...?

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by dstepper

Some of my thoughts on the shuttle service:

First off I am still open to the idea but I have some concerns. The trails on Mt. Wilson are very special and are one of the reasons I have not moved on to Arizona yet. First off, I hope that you do not shuttle any minors up the mountain, parents have a nasty habit of blaming others when their kids do something stupid. I am mainly concerned that the shuttle will put too many people on the trails and especially on “big bikes”.

“Yes” it would be great and make life very easy. But the true is: unlike some downhills…a shuttle is not necessary to enjoy those trails. The beauty of Mt. Wilson is you don’t have to climb the singletrack to get up. The downhills are easily broke into sections. Start with Brown Mt. and come down El Prieto. When you become a stronger climber do Mt Lowe Fireroad to Sunset...next to Middle Merrill…then up to Upper Merrill, until you can climb to the top and come down any of the other trails that drop off the top.

I will concede that my concerns/fears are self-centered and self-serving. If I trusted all mountain bikers to do the right things I would be totally onboard and support your venture…but I don’t. I don’t want to rain on your parade but it this time I have a hard time supporting it.

This accurately reflects my views too. Almost by definition, the folks on this board take their sport seriously and want to protect trail access. They are not the problem, or at worst an extremely small part of the problem. But I've been riding these trails for 10+ years and can see trouble coming. I'm an MTB rider and have seen rider behavior that makes be both angry and concerned about our trail access. IMHO, we are one or two major biker/hiker collisions away from big problems.
R

[Shu]

Originally Posted by mottmcfly

Maybe it was that "I hate Hikers" Jersey you were wearing.

Don't you mean the "I hate climbers" jersey...cuz the hikers have no problem w/ me....hahaha

[dstepper]

Originally Posted by Shu

...I think the climbers dislike the DH'ers more then the hikers....

Ouch....bro lets stick together.

Besides do many peole climb those trails. I know they climb El Preito and Lower Merrill but do that many people climb Sunset and Upper Merrills?

[Shu]

No offense intended to the climbing mtbers out there but I hear more grief and flack from them compared to hikers on ALL trials...yes I yield to climbers

[MTBMaven]

I will throw my hat into the ring on this one as well; I am not on the fence on this issue. I am totally 100% opposed to the idea of a shuttle but am not worried about it lasting too long. As someone else mentioned this WILL get shut down. It may take a few months but it WILL get shut down. The rangers are not stupid. They know what's going on out there. And even if they didn't the local community will inform them.

I think people efforts should be to work with the Forest Service to develop an area/trail network specifically for mountain bikers. If enough people, with the help of IMBA and CORBA, worked together to design a new mountain bike only DH trail you could have you cake and eat it too. Howard of the Angeles National Forest is very open to the idea of working with responsible mountain bikers. He was the one who wrote a letter to IMBA to get the IMBA Trail Crew out here. He is a great guy and willing to work WITH mountain bikers not against them.

Like someone else said, please don't take this personally. I am sure that those on STR posting about this issue are responsible riders, and that 90% of the people who will use the shuttle will be as well. However it is the other 10% that will ruin it for all of us.

Sorry one last thought. Please keep in mind this is a public forum and non-mountain bikers read these forums from time to time. They use the information stated in these threads as ammo against us when dealing with the Forest Service as evidence that we don't play by the rules.

[coldbrews]

I dont know if I am for shuttling or not, Ive never been to Mt. Wilson. I am trying to figure out why some are saying that the shuttle service will be shut down?

What is illegal about it? The person offering the service was only asking for a $7 "donation". Not actually charging.

[JoeTruth]

Originally Posted by coldbrews

I dont know if I am for shuttling or not, Ive never been to Mt. Wilson. I am trying to figure out why some are saying that the shuttle service will be shut down?

What is illegal about it? The person offering the service was only asking for a $7 "donation". Not actually charging.

[SIZE=3]Just like Korean massage places legally only charge for a massage but for extra services, you have to tip them. They call that a donation too but the last time I checked, lay down dancing or other services offered were never on the menu (so I've been told) when you walk in. Point being, the only way it can be a donation is if it's for non-profit purposes or a buddy giving you a ride up, which everyone pitches in to cover gas. In this instance, I believe everyone would like to call it a donation but in reality, it's a business and he's for hire.
That's where it gets tricky. You can't operate a legal business without proper certifications, licenses and insurance. Especially when other peoples safety depend on it.
[/SIZE]

[coldbrews]

Getting a BJ and riding your bicycle are two different things.

However I can understand what you are saying. I guess the police would have to prove that it is being done for the purpose of making a profit. Which wouldnt be hard to do if you keep making repeated runs to the top with different people and their bikes.