legality of empty lots

[chauvinist_youth]

Hey, guys. To avoid traffic I have been taking different side streets home from school and noticed a huge empty lot like only a mile from my house. Where I live any lot with out a house is rare, but I was wondering if I could build some small dirtjumps on it to practice with.
I believe it is in county with a Pasadena address if anybody knows the area its on michillinda across the street from hugo reid primary school.
Anyways I was wondering if there were any legality issues with building some jumps. If I get caught I can play the typical california "well there wasn't a locked gate around it with a sign saying no tresspassing". In actuality I would like to contact the owner and have everything out in the clear, but with dirt jumps on their land they would be liable to suit (not that they aren't already with an ungated lot).

So my main questions:

Can I put a sign up protecting the owner from suit saying like "ride at your own risk"?

Should I just build and not worry about the owner or anyone else?

Or does anyone have any other ideas?

[foofighter]

when i did a search it shows that it's in arcadia...if you have an adjacent property address i can find out who owns the property

i attached a plat map showing the properties if you can show me what lot number the empty lot is on i'll find out ownership and you can decide what to do then

[socal ridur]

i usually look to see if theres a tresspassing or private property sign if theres not we build... i never make my 8 foot high jumps(sorta like sheephills) but i build DJ and ladders.i wouldnt worry about it, if anyone hassles you just play dumb and say theres no signs or fence keeping people out.
remember most of the time it takes like 30 mins for the cops to roll up if someone is going to be grumpy about it, even if the cops decide to come to something harmless like dirtjumps in a vacant lot

[chauvinist_youth]

I'll find it on my way home from school tomorrow. I am pretty sure it is not in the Arcadia school districts, but it may have an Arcaida address and legally be considered county(kinda stupid cause it's right across the street from the school).

Here is the location on google maps: 34.1411,-118.068867

[BrewMaster]

It's still trespassing even if they don't have a sign up. Your only bet to do it legally would be to contact the owner, but I doubt they would go along with it. Otherwise you are could be on the hook for any problems.

[chauvinist_youth]

Originally Posted by BrewMaster

It's still trespassing even if they don't have a sign up. Your only bet to do it legally would be to contact the owner, but I doubt they would go along with it. Otherwise you are could be on the hook for any problems.

I'm just saying my mom's friend got sued cause some kids came into their gated locked backyard to play on a gym set and one of the kids broke his arm. Parents then sued my mom's friend and won the case as there were no "no tresspeassing" signs. So if that is a standard would I be in trouble or the owner for not posting the gates and signs?

edit: I don't want to piss anyone off and really want to be in the clear. Is there anything like "ride at your own risk" signs that would protect the owner?

[foofighter]

ok looking at the lat and lon you're right in the middle of a residential neighborhood and you moving dirt would definitely draw attention to what you're doing. Probably not a good idea...had it been out in the boonies you might have a better chance of getting away with it.

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by chauvinist_youth

I'm just saying my mom's friend got sued cause some kids came into their gated locked backyard to play on a gym set and one of the kids broke his arm. Parents then sued my mom's friend and won the case as there were no "no tresspeassing" signs. So if that is a standard would I be in trouble or the owner for not posting the gates and signs?

edit: I don't want to piss anyone off and really want to be in the clear. Is there anything like "ride at your own risk" signs that would protect the owner?

No, there isn't. Without permission from the owner, you are tresspassing and that is illegal. What right do you have to post a sign telling random people that they can ride on this property at their own risk? None of course. I suspect this is not what you wanted to hear, but there is no grey zone here. It is black and white despite your good intentions. It is a long shot, but best bet is to contact the owner and ask for permission to ride there.
Rob

[chauvinist_youth]

Originally Posted by EMrider

No, there isn't. Without permission from the owner, you are tresspassing and that is illegal. What right do you have to post a sign telling random people that they can ride on this property at their own risk? None of course. I suspect this is not what you wanted to hear, but there is no grey zone here. It is black and white despite your good intentions. It is a long shot, but best bet is to contact the owner and ask for permission to ride there.
Rob

Calm down, I wouldn't be posting the signs without first consulting the owner and I really don't want to piss anyone off. And in actuality I will probably contact the owner before I even set foot on the property, that's just my personality (I'm a law abiding mama's boy).

[2wheel_lee]

tresspassing_youth,
While growing up, I built stuff in many local lots - residential and commercial. I even built a small BMX track where a home burned and the ground was leveled for many years in a high-end neighborhood. Yes, I was tresspassing, but no one every complained.

That was years ago. Liability concerns are very different these days.

A couple years back, I bought a dirt bike, and I was too anxious to ride it, so I rode it around a vacant lot in a commercial area (where a business now exists along Bake Pkwy). I wasn't on the bike for more than a few minutes before Foothill Ranch's finest rolled up. I immediately stopped, and even went over to him as he waved me to come closer. Obviously, in this area, I could have easily ditched him, but I thought the area was open game - or at least no one would mind. I was cool, and he was cool. Nonetheless, he wrote me up for tresspassing! There were no signs and no fences. Fortunately, the case was dropped. That could have been really ugly.

I'm a little torn in what to suggest. I know as goodintentioned_youth, you could probably get away with a lot simply by being cool about the whole thing (tresspassing). On the other hand, maybe not.

Getting permission is not likely to happen, but perhaps worth the effort. Expect to be prepared with a full proposal of what you plan to do, and don't forget to tell the owner that you have liability coverage to cover anyone who gets into an accident on their property. It's really not worth it for the owner to expose himself to unwanted risk. Remember, someone (or company) owns the lot and can be held responsible for anything that happens on the lot - fence or not. If they are sued - whether they win or lose - their costs defending themselves will be very high. It's important to understand the owner's concerns (whether you talk with them or not, these concerns will always exist).

If you do go ahead and build something, do it only with dirt, and keep it very simple. Don't go big (you don't want anything to be really visible from the road). If it gets torn down, get the hint and move on.

Try to coax an older friend to be the lead guy on the project.

Good luck.

[chauvinist_youth]

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

Getting permission is not likely to happen, but perhaps worth the effort. Expect to be prepared with a full proposal of what you plan to do, and don't forget to tell the owner that you have liability coverage to cover anyone who gets into an accident on their property. It's really not worth it for the owner to expose himself to unwanted risk. Remember, someone (or company) owns the lot and can be held responsible for anything that happens on the lot - fence or not. If they are sued - whether they win or lose - their costs defending themselves will be very high. It's important to understand their side.

If something was to happen and the blame was on me, I have no financial way to pay any damages. I was just wondering if it was as simple as to put up a sign that says ride at your own risk, and then the only one's liable would be the ones riding themselves. If it's not that easy than I am not gonna build anything. i could care less if some stupid kids breaks his arm and was stupid enough not to have insurance, but would really be distraught if the land owner got a crap load of money taken away because of that stupid kid and my jumps.

Originally Posted by 2wheel_lee

If you do go ahead and build something, do it only with dirt, and keep it very simple. Don't go big (you don't want anything to be really visible from the road). If it gets torn down, get the hint and move on.

c'mon, I was rolling the doubles in the x zone at mammoth, there's no way they're gonna be bigger than two feet. The only air i've ever gotten is doing like 3-4 foot to flats on concrete, and i would really like a place to practice and see what it's like to get smooth flowy air

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by chauvinist_youth

Calm down, I wouldn't be posting the signs without first consulting the owner and I really don't want to piss anyone off. And in actuality I will probably contact the owner before I even set foot on the property, that's just my personality (I'm a law abiding mama's boy).

No problem, I'm totally calm and simply giving you the facts directly and clearly.

[allison]

Originally Posted by chauvinist_youth

If something was to happen and the blame was on me, I have no financial way to pay any damages. I was just wondering if it was as simple as to put up a sign that says ride at your own risk, and then the only one's liable would be the ones riding themselves. If it's not that easy than I am not gonna build anything.

Don't ever assume that parents and or others won't sue no matter what kind of signs are posted or waivers are signed.

This is an extremely litigious society. Everyone wants money for nothing. So, expect that whether you put a sign up or not if someone gets hurt on the property they will try to blame you for building it and the owner for having an empty lot.

Sucks, but it's true.

[2wheel_lee]

As Allison said, people are sue happy. It's never their own fault for actions they do, it's someone elses (so they think). So regardless whether or not you have signs, you or your family may be sued. And it is expensive to defend yourself whether you're right or wrong.

An example is Snow Summit at Big Bear. They made you sign waiver forms, yet they were still sued. And because of the costs involved to defend themselves, they no longer offer DH.

Instead of building stuff, look for natural or existing obstacles around your neighborhood to practice and hone your skills. I'm sure with a creative eye, you will find stuff.

[spookydave]

Originally Posted by chauvinist_youth

If something was to happen and the blame was on me, I have no financial way to pay any damages. I was just wondering if it was as simple as to put up a sign that says ride at your own risk, and then the only one's liable would be the ones riding themselves. If it's not that easy than I am not gonna build anything. i could care less if some stupid kids breaks his arm and was stupid enough not to have insurance, but would really be distraught if the land owner got a crap load of money taken away because of that stupid kid and my jumps.

If something were to happen they would go after the landowner. Even if he had no idea that people were riding there. That's just the way it is and why they prolly won't let you build.

With that said I've skated and rode bikes alot of places I shouldn't have. But that was way before the day of being able to ask if it was ok on the internet. (Ok I still do but I'm not tellin where)

Dang Lee, I'm glad we grew up back when we did. Could still get away with some stuff. The only thing is I don't remember the high school girls looking like they do now! haha

[Flat Broke]

The legality of who is right or wrong with signage, disclaimers etc. is often a minimal concern when lawsuits and payouts are discussed. Many times people that were in the right (such as your friends's parents) might have just paid the people because it was cheaper than hiring a lawyer, spending the same amount of $$ and still possibly having to pay the people. Not to get off topic, but in many cases, your friend's family's homeowners insurance should have covered that incident. The fact that the plaintiffs got paid is probably further evidence that the ins company deemed it cheaper to settle than go whole hog in court.

Where am I going with this? It doesn't matter if you have the perfectly worded, placed, and colored sign. If someone wants to levy a suit, they can. It's nice that you're concerned about the property owners well being in a litigation scenario, but your signs wont do squat to protect him. In fact, if you approach him about the jumps and he says yes, he's already on the hook for more than if you did it without his knowledge/consent. It's actually not much of a stretch to argue that you'd be protecting him better by doing it without his permission. Unless of course, by you asking, he sees his exposure and gets a fence and signage up before you or someone else starts digging.

It's a sad day (in many different regards)in this country when a kid has to come on a message board to ask about how he should go about getting permision to build some dirt jumps in a vacant lot. As Lee said, it wasn't that way in the old days, but times have changed.

Ultimately, if you really care about the guys exposure, you shouldn't do anything on the lot. And for future reference, remember the following rule... Rule number one about fight club is not to talk about fight club. Now swap DJ spots with fight club and you get the idea. If you build, only send the info via PM etc so poachers etc don't blow up you spot

Chris

[dstepper]

My sugestion is to ride around and do the Urban Assult. You will find many jumps and steps to play around on in parks and parking lots...ect. Hit it a couple of times and move on to the next. Lots of play stuff out there if you look around.

Bad idea to build stuff on private property...you could be pulled into a lawsuit and if you have no money they will go after your parents...minor or not if you are living at home.

Build some ramps in your parents yard! and invite us over...that should make them happy!

Dean

[2wheel_lee]

Originally Posted by dstepper

Build some ramps in your parents yard! and invite us over...that should make them happy!

Dean

Of course his parents would be liable if someone else got hurt. I've heard of this happening many times.

Back in the day, I had an 8' quarter pipe in my front yard that my dad built. Although a few others did get hurt riding it, it was back in the day where people accepted responsibility for their own actions.

[Innes]

Originally Posted by BrewMaster

It's still trespassing even if they don't have a sign up. Your only bet to do it legally would be to contact the owner, but I doubt they would go along with it. Otherwise you are could be on the hook for any problems.

So true. When I was younger, I got ticketed for doing this exact same thing. I went to court and tried the "there weren't any posted no trespassing signs" excuse and the judge just laughed at me.

[chauvinist_youth]