Legal or Illegal trails at LCWP

[genusmtbkr5]

Just some info; I rode Laguna Coast this past Sunday(Father's Day). Started at Ridge Park Rd and went into LCW. From the main trail, we took a left onto Lizards and rode about 80-90% of it until we came up on 3 rangers. The first thing she said was that we were in trouble because Lizards is closed to "ALL" users. I and the others had no idea it was closed. She said they are trying to open it for legal use, but for now it is closed. We did not get a ticket because it was Father's Day and she thought she would give us this "1" warning. She also said that if the trail does not have a sign marking it at the trailhead, it is considered closed for use. Other trails that are ILLEGAL are: Marie Calendars, Drunken Sailor. The rangers will ticket you and could impound your bike as well. Just thought I'd pass this along if you didn't already know.

[J_Sims]

Good looking out... I always assumed that if it was not marked closed or do not enter that it would be open to traffic....

[CalEpic]

Originally Posted by genusmtbkr5

I and the others had no idea it was closed.

Are you being serious?

Or, are you posturing since you were caught after publicly condemning those that poach?

C

[Chopper]

Rule of thumb is, if it's not on the map it is not an authorized trail. No body wants a bunch of signs clutter up the park and besides, as soon as a sign goes up, someone knocks it down.

[genusmtbkr5]

Originally Posted by Chopper

Rule of thumb is, if it's not on the map it is not an authorized trail. No body wants a bunch of signs clutter up the park and besides, as soon as a sign goes up, someone knocks it down.

Lizards is on the Franko map and the ranger acknowledged that.

Originally Posted by CalEpic

Are you being serious?

Or, are you posturing since you were caught after publicly condemning those that poach?

C

No I was not condeming anyone at all. I rarely ride LCWP and heard that some new single tracks were open. I thought this was one of them. I didn't even know the name of it (lizards) until just last Mon. We didn't ride Marie Calendars or Drunken sailor at all. I just asked the ranger which trail was closed so I don't end up poaching.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by genusmtbkr5

Lizards is on the Franko map and the ranger acknowledged that.



No I was not condeming anyone at all. I rarely ride LCWP and heard that some new single tracks were open. I thought this was one of them. I didn't even know the name of it (lizards) until just last Mon. And I we didn't ride Marie Calendars or Drunken sailor at all. I just asked the ranger which trail was closed so I don't end up poaching.

Lizards is on the current Franko's map since it used to be considered a "maintenance trail", but currently it is closed to all users; and will not be shown on the next revision of Franko's map.

The rule that Chopper pointed out is what we have been posting for around the past 10+ years.

Trails that are legal to access are shown on the land manager’s map and in most cases are also signed at the trail-head. You have to refer to the land managers maps since private map companies and book publishers may not always be correct.

Franko's map however does do a great job of meeting with the managers to make sure his maps are correct, but every once in a while, even an open trail's status can change......so it's best to always keep a land managers map handy.

Just try to err on the safe side and make sure you know the trail you are using is a legal trail. A citation or an impounded bike would be a bad way to end a nice ride.

See ya on the trails

[guero]

thanks for the heads up gene.

how about a CLEAR & CONSISTANT signage system that is easily visible to see what trails are in fact legal to ride/access. i know the old emerald s/t has a post on the opposite side of the fireroad that could easily be missed. i cant remember if there is a sign at the beginning of the rattlesnake s/t either....i think it is unfair for them to ticket people when there isnt a clear and consistant signage system for all trails. even if you have a map, the maps aren't all that easy to read, especially for the new users to the park. the only reason i am able to help new park users when reading their maps is because i've ridden there so many times.

[genusmtbkr5]

Originally Posted by JamR

Just try to err on the safe side and make sure you know the trail you are using is a legal trail. A citation or an impounded bike would be a bad way to end a nice ride.

See ya on the trails

That's why we asked and was told then, before that day. Since I don't ride LCW very much, I had no idea Lizards was an illegal trail. LCWP is the under the same park system as Aliso, Whiting and O'Neill. Each of those parks have signs posts that clearly marked wheither the trail is open or closed to bikes. Why not at LCW?

[OMR]

I know this can be very confusing some times.. trails that have been opened are now closed and other trails that look open (a la Nothing Better To Do/El Moro) are not. Hell, I've found myself on an illegal trail and didn't know. Therefore, We need to be proactive on this board (thanks Gene) and continually remind people which are ones are closed. I know that there are trails out there that we'd all like to ride (Marie Calendars for one) but are not able to. We have to remember that this is really a privilege... not a right and that most trails are closed for good reason... which may not be apparent but needed none the less. We really are so fortunate and spoiled here in SoCal that we do have so many legal trails to ride. Let's keep those open and stay on those.

OMR... slowly climbing off the soap box... creak, pop!

[guero]

Originally Posted by Chopper

Rule of thumb is, if it's not on the map it is not an authorized trail. No body wants a bunch of signs clutter up the park and besides, as soon as a sign goes up, someone knocks it down.

I'm not sure how a few signs placed at the beginning of an s/t or fireroad would be considered cluttering up a park, considering the urban clutter i see when i look to the north side of el moro. I've seen the signs at the top of I Think I Can and other places throughout the park and don't think they are creating clutter. I understand you put in a LOT of work into our parks, and am grateful for that. To me, it seems like there has to be a better way of marking trails. It is unfortunate that signs to get removed, and I'm not sure how how to prevent that. But to ticket unsuspecting users who made an honest mistake by accessing a trail which wasnt marked EITHER way isn't right in my opinion.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by genusmtbkr5

That's why we asked and was told then, before that day. Since I don't ride LCW very much, I had no idea Lizards was an illegal trail. LCWP is the under the same park system as Aliso, Whiting and O'Neill. Each of those parks have signs posts that clearly marked wheither the trail is open or closed to bikes. Why not at LCW?

The parks don't really want to have to place a "do not enter" or "closed area" sign at every non-authorized trail. If they do, the areas would be cluttered with tons of signs.

Lizards has no trail marker and is not on the county's trail map which is the only legal criteria the county needs to have in order to enforce. There was a "closed area" sign at the bottom of Lizards, but people keep pulling the sign down and throwing it in the bushes. I've retreived it at least a dozen times this year while traveling through the area, and put it back in place.

Typically the closed area and closed trail signs get vandalized so often that it is unrealistic to maintain them for any period of time.

There are a few exceptions, but for the most part the trails in the county and state parks are marked with signs.

One reason also that even a trail head sign is not the ultimate indicator, is that these often get vandalized or stolen (look what happened to the heavy posts on the San Juan Trail).

Since signs in the field areas are subject to loss or vandalism; the primary indicator of a legal trail is the land managers map, and is the only item that needs to be in place in order to enforce if needed.

Just be safe and don't enter an unsigned trail unless you know for a fact that it is shown on the park's map.

[guero]

thanks adam. all very good points. im sure it is frustrating for you to have to keep retrieving signs and putting them back.

i know it is up to everyone to be informed before entering a trail system (talking to a ranger, reviewing a map), or for anything in life really. but as we know, many people dont take that responsibility sometimes(including myself).

im sure it is up to the ranger's discression whether or not they will issue a ticket to a user who is caught/found on an "illegal" trail, and would hope the ranger would let the person off with a warning (such as gene's case) if it is apparent that the user genuinely appeared to have no idea that the trail was closed. of course if a pursuit ensued to evade a ranger, that would be a no brainer and a just cause for a ticket in my eyes...but i'm not a ranger.

[OTHRIDER]

Good topic. I'm planning on venturing from my normal Fully Loop rides down into south county. What is the best source for a "current" land managers map?

Internet/ signboard / free handout?

[genusmtbkr5]

Originally Posted by JamR

Just be safe and don't enter an unsigned trail unless you know for a fact that it is shown on the park's map.

Originally Posted by CalEpic

Are you being serious?

Or, are you posturing since you were caught after publicly condemning those that poach?

C

Thanks for the info Jamr. That's why I posted this thread, to inform those who may not know, not to posture or condem anyone because I was "caught".

Originally Posted by OTHRIDER

Good topic. I'm planning on venturing from my normal Fully Loop rides down into south county. What is the best source for a "current" land managers map?

Internet/ signboard / free handout?

You can go to the New Nix Center off the 133

Nix Nature Center

[royta]

Originally Posted by guero

of course if a pursuit ensued to evade a ranger, that would be a no brainer and a just cause for a ticket in my eyes...but i'm not a ranger.

Another reason to get in tip top riding shape.


ETA - I'm just trying to be funny here folks. I'm not suggesting we ride illegal trails and run from the "law".

[allison]

I guess it's a good reason for me to stay out of OC and not deal with all these issues. We like to ride in new areas, but if I ended up getting my bike impounded because I went somewhere new and was riding an UNsigned trail, that'd really irk me.

Unless there's paper maps available at the trailhead (if there are then that's cool and would solve the problem above) then I don't think it's fair to assume that all newbie riders and out of towners would know to go to a different area and pick up maps, or realize they were on an illegal trail.

Typically the areas we ride just have "trail closed" signs where they don't want people going.

Tell those bastards from the valley to stop going out and wrecking your signs. jk.

[Fired Yo Momma]

I bet if you got a ticket their I bet you could fight it and win. I ride out their all the time off of Ridgepark and it is easy to go on a "unautorized" trail. I love those signs their thats say "you are here" but it really douse not point out where you are at.