Aliso Woods Enforcement Coming...

[TURNERob]

Originally Posted by maxwell

Do I think that if the local DH'ers worked to get the good stuff open, would it happen? Not here in Orange County.

I think you pretty much nailed it right there Darin. I'm pretty sure most people don't make the effort because jumping through all those hoops just isn't worth it when most would rather just go poach trails and risk getting caught.

[CalEpic]

Group hug

[JamR]

Originally Posted by maxwell

If I remember right, 10 years ago Car Wreck was legal, along with JT's(?). And Stairsteps was the route we would take to get to LCW.
I remember when they closed them, saying that they were too "unsafe".
And I also remember when they opened Stairsteps.

I also support SHARE, and some of Adam's view's, but I have to say that I share Mr. Walling's viewpoint the most.

To this I have to add that I got slammed by a "local" for posting pics of my ride last Wenesday morning; Blackstar W/ A Little Exploring Thrown In

Did I know it was on private property? More or less.
It's owned by this group; http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?cont...&folder_id=266

Did I feel like I was "tresspassing", or making a lasting impact on the future of this trail? (not really much of a trail there) No.

Do I think that if the local DH'ers worked to get the good stuff open, would it happen? Not here in Orange County.

Car Wreck and JT's were never legal and you will never be able to find any county map that showed them as such.

They were not closed for reasons of safety.....they were finally closed when the county simply started to enforce the inventory of trails that were basically included on the mapped inventory of trails. I know this for a fact because I was the one who actually installed the closure signs along with another Ranger when I was working out at that park. It went against my personal convictions to close the trail, but I truly believe that it is best to work through the system; so I began working along with others years ago to start the processes to get this trail legalized.

This was also a big reason why the public push came about for the RRMP for the park to have a "second look" taken at these trails......which is why Car Wreck is currently being considered. JT's is considered to be too high of a valued habitat area and is not being considered for opening.

Stairsteps was not changed when it was opened, and Car Wreck will probably remain the same if it gets opened.

I think in theory we all seem to want the same thing......but I just think the better route is to work through the system.....which unfortunately in many cases takes a long time; but if successful has better long-term results.

I have seen it work in many instances.....but in most cases there have been compromises that needed to take place.

I don't just have a blind faith that everything in the system works; but I do believe that when it comes to trail access; it's the only logical course of action.

Simply riding and maintaining trails that have been deemed non-sanctioned by whatever land management agency is in charge is not the answer and does not open up any dialogue with the managers.

Again.......I am really disappointed that the people who are so passionate about certain trails will simply not contact the managers and open a dialogue. They will willingly post on message boards like these for hours, but put little effort into pushing for their favorite trails.

Just get involved.......it may be a slow process......but you might just be surprised with the results.

There are many examples where this has worked to the advantage of access to some highly desired trails.

[RED5]

Originally Posted by JamR

Car Wreck and JT's were never legal and you will never be able to find any county map that showed them as such.

They were not closed for reasons of safety.....they were finally closed when the county simply started to enforce the inventory of trails that were basically included on the mapped inventory of trails. I know this for a fact because I was the one who actually installed the closure signs along with another Ranger when I was working out at that park. It went against my personal convictions to close the trail, but I truly believe that it is best to work through the system; so I began working along with others years ago to start the processes to get this trail legalized.

This was also a big reason why the public push came about for the RRMP for the park to have a "second look" taken at these trails......which is why Car Wreck is currently being considered. JT's is considered to be too high of a valued habitat area and is not being considered for opening.

Stairsteps was not changed when it was opened, and Car Wreck will probably remain the same if it gets opened.

I think in theory we all seem to want the same thing......but I just think the better route is to work through the system.....which unfortunately in many cases takes a long time; but if successful has better long-term results.

I have seen it work in many instances.....but in most cases there have been compromises that needed to take place.

I don't just have a blind faith that everything in the system works; but I do believe that when it comes to trail access; it's the only logical course of action.

Simply riding and maintaining trails that have been deemed non-sanctioned by whatever land management agency is in charge is not the answer and does not open up any dialogue with the managers.

Again.......I am really disappointed that the people who are so passionate about certain trails will simply not contact the managers and open a dialogue. They will willingly post on message boards like these for hours, but put little effort into pushing for their favorite trails.

Just get involved.......it may be a slow process......but you might just be surprised with the results.

There are many examples where this has worked to the advantage of access to some highly desired trails.

So what I support your cause and maybe in 3 centuries your grandkids will support mine. No thanks. Until the biking "community" actually comes together to support one another as a whole, I could give a piss about your supporting your self serving agendas. When your ready to man up and support all aspects of riding and not just yours I'll be here paying my fines, ready to take action.

[mtnbikej]

Originally Posted by RED5

Yeah and I was one of them. However, after reading the proposed plan, I can say I was less than impressed with what we got. Basically they want to neuter the trails, taking away any challenge and making them rideable on a beach cruiser. OH what fun!!

And as I stated before, your there for "YOUR TRAILS", but I doubt any of the attendees of the Santiago meeting have sent an email to the Laguna city council or the rangers asking to keep Telonics open. Why, because you don't ride there and therefore it's not any interest of yours, YET! But it will be. Because when DH'rs start riding on the legal trails with they're 8" travel rigs and hammering down blowing past everyone, you'll all start complaining, someone will get hurt and eventually all the trails will be closed, because we couldn't all come together and support each other. Oh WELL!

I have riden trails all over OC for 15 years. If you set up a meeting with the county/trails advisory like we had for Santiago Oaks, I will gladly come and support it. Rally your DH bretheren that rides out a Aliso(I am sure there are more than 30 of you) and do something about it..... Put a little effort into it and you might be suprised what could happen.

But, from what I understand Telonics is not within the county park system, so you will have to find the rightful owners/managers of the that land.

[ipahead]

Seems Like Having Fun Is So Unpopular These Days.how Many People Really Ride These Trails?us And A Few Other People.hikers Are Not Interested In Most Of Them.sounds Like Poor Managment.maybe I Dont Understand?houses Or Trails.at Least Theres Still Video Games!

[Chewyeti]

oh.. and to find out WHO owns that land....

go INTO city hall, ask to talk to their public works/GIS department. They will have a map, or a map book, or a file/program that will have the owners address and contact info.

Should be public record.

Originally Posted by ipahead

Seems Like Having Fun Is So Unpopular These Days.how Many People Really Ride These Trails?us And A Few Other People.hikers Are Not Interested In Most Of Them.sounds Like Poor Managment.maybe I Dont Understand?houses Or Trails.at Least Theres Still Video Games!

Seems Like Capitalization Rules Do Not Apply?

[CPATCRASH]

To this I have to add that I got slammed by a "local" for posting pics of my ride last Wenesday morning; Blackstar W/ A Little Exploring Thrown In

Did I know it was on private property? More or less.
It's owned by this group; http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?cont...&folder_id=266

Did I feel like I was "tresspassing", or making a lasting impact on the future of this trail? (not really much of a trail there) No.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to agree somewhat with both sides here. While I will ride most trails I think it is a bad idea to take pictures and broadcast it to the general public. Ride what you will but just don't tell everyone!

[JamR]

Originally Posted by RED5

JamR, HooverMD, EricFoltz and dudevf1 you guys make me laugh. You claim to be all about preserving the trail, YEAH RIGHT YOUR TRAILS!! But what about the rest of the MTB community?? And I use the word community loosely, since it seems to be more like to seperate parties out for themselves rather than the good of the whole. Which sadly is a huge part of the problem. XC riders don't like DH'rs because we don't show up to meetings about trail usage and they ride to fast down multi-use trails (WHICH BTW, some of your own xc breatheren are also guilty of) and DH'rs don't appear to be too fond of XC riders because they think they're all a bunch of spandex wearing wimps who think they're better than them because they earn there descent. My arguement for that is, WHO THE F*CK CARES WHAT BIKE YOU RIDE OR WHAT YOU WEAR!!! In the end we're all just going to mess it up for everyone if we cannot pull our respective heads out of our asses and see the big picture!! DH riders need to support the continued expansion of XC trails and XC riders need to help lobby for more & keeping existing trails open to DH'rs, as a COMMUNITY!!!!

Now time for a little history lesson.

You see, back in the day, I used to go to SHARE trail days with my old now defunct group, Team Basso, and when I tried to offer up suggestions on making the trails more "aggressive" I got the old response "too dangerous". FYI, all I was trying to add to the trails where some bermed sections and small jumps and drops, with included Plines. But NOOOOO, that was far to much. So I gave up!! So from my own experience SHARE doesn't give a crap about DH riding.

As for attending county meetings, I'm sure my one voice will go along ways towards saving telonics, since I'm pretty well assured that you 4 previously mentioned guys won't there to support my voice??? As will none of the rest of the XC riding "community". And sad to say but I doubt that 30 dh'rs from the local area are going to be taken seriously without the support of any local groups and that of the local community. It's a no win situation and not because we wouldn't try, but more to the point that the people in power and the local communities don't care and are too worried about liability. Rest assured that without SHARE I doubt you would still too many XC trails to ride on. Since I'm fairly certain alot of hikers and equestrians would love nothing better than to see bikers removed from all/most nature parks.

Because you see, DH is dangerous and because of this, it has been deemed unworthy of support by groups like SHARE. So when little Billy dons his DH gear and gets hurt going OTB on Telonics, mom and dad need to sue someone to pay Billy's hospital bills and to make a point about what good parents they are, since they're going to do all they can to stop this dangerous sport and protect Billy. Rather than just taking responsibility and realizing that in dangerous sports people get hurt. Remember Big Bear??? I do.



great job!! Way to keep a solid perspective and pass along positive view points. It's attitude like this that will go a long way towards bringing the 2 communities together. Your a great ambassador for your groups point of view. Keep up the good work.

Not sure where you came up with that opinion of me..... and unlike some locals.....I don't consider these my trails and I'm all for the opening of many of the trails that have been deemed non-authorized. And if you were at a meeting regarding the legalization of Telonics, I would be there in support......but without the people who have a passion for that trail leading the charge to try to get it legalized.....it's a lost point because there probably won't be any meetings to attend.

The disadvantage for me is that people post here who know exactly who I am and what I do....yet I don't know them, and they have the luxury of posting in complete anonymity.

I often post my e-mail in many of these cases when people like you make remarks directly at me, and I offer a direct dialogue opportunity and offer meetings to try to get to a common ground......yet I can say with all honesty that not once has one of these anonymous posters contacted me or entered into a constructive dialogue, or taken me up on an offer to meet or take a ride to look at trails in question.

As far as your comments on trails......I'll put this out on the table. When I first got involved with the City of Irvine Open Space's Recreation and Resource Management Plan, and had the opportunity to survey all of the existing ranch roads and non-sanctioned single-tracks for the recommendations for inclusion into the RRMP for approval.......the first people I tried to contact via a mutual acquaintance was the Rads.

I wanted them to have the first opportunity to get involved with the selection of the trail lines since there were numerous options on some of the trails, and with the RRMP; only one trail alignment per trail would be allowed.

The word I got back was that they wanted nothing to do with it, so we picked the most sustainable lines and left in the existing technical features that made the trails what they are. The only thing that is taking place that some may not agree with is that bridges are going to be installed at the creek crossings which is a requirement of the RRMP, and the Reservoir Drop trail was rejected by the agencies as an authorized trail; so it is currently being restored. I would love to see that trail also included in the system, but it is not to be; so I will do my job and restore it back to habitat and will support any and all enforcement to assure that it has a chance to return back to nature.

So if I seem a little jaded on the willingness of the local hard core groups to get involved, it is from first hand experience.

I'll lay out my exact positions for you so there is no miss-communication:

I'm all for XC trails
I'm all for DH specific trails
I'm all for built in features
I'm all for hiking specific trails
I'm all for multi-use trails
and I would love to see many of the non-sanctioned trails legalized.
Each of the above has a place in a healthy system.

However I'm all for the above only if they are obtained through the legal processes, which includes all required environmental surveys and approvals......and where they are proven to be compatible with the habitat.

Most of these areas are signatory to the NCCP which means preservation and habitat protection first, education, and then recreation. That does not mean that any of the above trail types are automatically excluded, but they need to be added through the legal process.

I think where the biggest divisiveness between myself and some of these riders comes from is my lack of two standards.

My personal standard is that things need to be done in the proper and legal manner.....(even if I'm not in agreement with the final results). What this means is that even if one of my favorite trails goes under the block and get closed by any agency through a legal process....I won't ride that trail unless it gets opened again legally.

Likewise, even if it's a trail that I personally would love to see opened.....I'll support any and all enforcement that may be required if it has been deemed off-limits.

Bottom line is......I'll abide by and support the rules and processes (even the ones I have a problem with). Any ones I may have an issue with, I'll work within the system to try to change, but if they cannot be changed then I'll accept it by just looking at the bigger picture.

This may not sit well with some of the locals who ride and maintain the non-sanctioned trails.....but I still believe that a lot more get's accomplished through the system than outside of the system.

As far as my opinions on DH riders:
I personally don't believe DH is dangerous (any more than XC), and in reality the people who practice this discipline tend to be more skilled and probably have a much better chance of avoiding serious injury than the average weekend warrior.

If I actually had more biking skills at my current age, I'd probably have a DH bike in my cadre of bikes.

I would really appreciate it if people would talk to me before they post completely false statements or come to conclusions that are not correct regarding my opinions.

If you want to have a further dialogue, meet in person, or take a ride (on legal trails obviously).....just contact me: amaywhort@irconservancy.org or 714-508-4762 direct office number

The only thing I ask of people is if they need to clarify some information or miss-information they may have about me......just have the courage to contact me and get it from the source.

I have no concerns with stating my philosophies with anyone....and don't expect everyone to agree with me....but I'm always willing openly discuss these topics with anyone.

The main issue I have is that to-date.....none of these riders who have certain opinions of me or clear opposing philosophies regarding non-sanctioned trail use have had the courage to actually contact me and talk to me personally.

Hopefully you will be the first.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks!

[RED5]

Thank you to all for the insight on how to start a movement to get Telonics legalized. You've all given me a ton of great info, I will do my best to see that it has not been shared in vain.

Originally Posted by JamR

I have no concerns with stating my philosophies with anyone....and don't expect everyone to agree with me....but I'm always willing openly discuss these topics with anyone.

The main issue I have is that to-date.....none of these riders who have certain opinions of me or clear opposing philosophies regarding non-sanctioned trail use have had the courage to actually contact me and talk to me personally.

Hopefully you will be the first.

I look forward to hearing from you

Thank you for the offer. You will hearing from me before weeks end, I look forward to sharing my views, hearing yours and maybe you can help me work on a viable game plan to get Telonics legal.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by RED5

Thank you to all for the insight on how to start a movement to get Telonics legalized. You've all given me a ton of great info, I will do my best to see that it has not been shared in vain.

[/color]

Thank you for the offer. You will hearing from me before weeks end, I look forward to sharing my views, hearing yours and maybe you can help me work on a viable game plan to get Telonics legal.

Nice.....looking forward to it!

Just remember.....if we ride together and I end up crashing......I'll probably blame it on you so my wife won't roll her eyes when I come home bloody again

I never get any sympathy when I come home injured......go figure!

[evil]

Hi there all A LITTLE NOTE FROM EVIL


Just my few words, maybe everyone should stop writing on this forum and get out and start working on these trail and on this topic!!!

plus I rode Telonic yesterday and saw about 6 Dh rider and about the same in XC rider , so let all get going and talk to who ever we can.. this is not a DH only crap, everyone rides this trail.

To the comment that DH riders dont get out and do trail work or they dont help keep trails open,, maybe you should just shut the F @#$% before you speak.

I ride DH and Race DH. !!! but i also have ridden and raced XC!! I work for the the local county FD and i have spent the last 2 weeks working with the dozers and graders 10 hours a day hiking and spending countless hours cutting up all the fallin trees blocking, filling in ruts and making water bars so that we can open your XC trail at whitting, i have also been talking to the park Ranger so that i can set up a trail day ,so we can all go out and re open whitting . and the last time i checked whitting is all XC trails and hikers trail. SO DONT EVER GIVE DH RIDERS SHIT THAT THEY DONT HELP OUT , MAYBE YOU SHOULD GET OFF YOU FAT ASS AND DO SOMETHING YOURSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CalEpic]

Moderator comment: There is a good dialogue on this resurrected thread. Let's keep it civil though or it will be closed.

Thank you.

C

[RacinJason]

I think telonics needs a difficulty level label. They do it on many trails and it works.
Like Ginger triple black diamond at Bootleg canyon. Hardly anyone says hey lets go ride that one it might kill us. Most wont mess with it.
Maybe label the split offs and lines. But don't change anything to make it easier.
People need to know what they are getting into.
And maybe some kind of enter at your own risk. At the top. Any of us can handle the ride.
But that guy taking a Sunday ride that has no experience can get in over his head.
I don't know just an idea. If someone gets hurt the trails get reviewed and sanitized or closed from what I have seen in the past.


And just so you know Evil puts more time in on the trails that anyone I know.
Most of the DH guys are heavy into XC training and helping in any way they can.

If we all work together we can get something done.

[Chewyeti]

Originally Posted by RacinJason

I think telonics needs a difficulty level label. They do it on many trails and it works.
Like Ginger triple black diamond at Bootleg canyon. Hardly anyone says hey lets go ride that one it might kill us. Most wont mess with it.
Maybe label the split offs and lines. But don't change anything to make it easier.
People need to know what they are getting into.
And maybe some kind of enter at your own risk. At the top. Any of us can handle the ride.
But that guy taking a Sunday ride that has no experience can get in over his head.
I don't know just an idea. If someone gets hurt the trails get reviewed and sanitized or closed from what I have seen in the past.


And just so you know Evil puts more time in on the trails that anyone I know.
Most of the DH guys are heavy into XC training and helping in any way they can.

If we all work together we can get something done.

places like the wedge, they have signs saying nasty undertoe/huge surf/ you can die warnings....

that would work