Aliso Woods Enforcement Coming...

[northshore]

I wonder if the Disneyland trails pass Meadows is illegal?

[JamR]

Originally Posted by northshore

I wonder if the Disneyland trails pass Meadows is illegal?

Everything past meadows coming down into Aliso Canyon is currently not legal, but D-Land might be the Esslinger Trail that is proposed for the RRMP for Aliso-Woods.

Check out the maps on the county website and you might be able to tell from there.

[hoovermd]

Originally Posted by JamR

...
10 years ago no one would have believed that Stairsteps would ever be legalized, but it is now totally legal. The same with Car Wreck.........hopefully to be included in the final Aliso-Woods RRMP.
...

Yes,but if you bother to read the 250+ pages of the RRMP you will nitice that no new trails will be opened UNTIL the old trails are totally recovered!

This means that every rider who rides the illegal trails simply delays the opening of the new ones!!!


7.3.7 (page 100) states:

"this RMP recommends that unauthorized trails
slated to be authorized (opened) be opened once habitat restoration is successfully initiated
for the unauthorized trails that are to remain closed within that area of the park."

[JamR]

Originally Posted by hoovermd

Yes,but if you bother to read the 250+ pages of the RRMP you will nitice that no new trails will be opened UNTIL the old trails are totally recovered!

This means that every rider who rides the illegal trails simply delays the opening of the new ones!!!


7.3.7 (page 100) states:

"this RMP recommends that unauthorized trails
slated to be authorized (opened) be opened once habitat restoration is successfully initiated
for the unauthorized trails that are to remain closed within that area of the park."

I've read the entire document twice so far and it's a pretty comprehensive study of the park.

It's also one of the reasons why I frequently post that we all have an impact on our sport and can affect it either in a positive or a negative way.

Riding non-sanctioned trails gives us a bad rep, and even if you don't get caught your presence is known just by the fact that the trails remain open.

This is especially true on trails where the Rangers, land managers, or ecologists have taken steps to close them and restore them.......and subsequently they continue to find their efforts impacted by illegal use, or deliberate vandalism of their restoration efforts.

This is not really the case with Telonics, but is certainly true with trails within Aliso and other areas, and eventually there may be stiff citations for the people who are keeping these trails open.

Like I said.......the people who have a passion for Telonics should get involved and try to get it on the map.

As far as Aliso-Woods.......with the current heavy vegetation that is growing everywhere right now......if people would simply stay off the trails that are shown to be closed in the RRMP for the park; once the RRMP is finalized; they will be that much closer to opening the additional trails.

Again......bikers can have a direct impact on how quick this occurs. They can continue to use these trails and fight the county and delay the opening of the additional trails; or they can stay off them and help the park close them to aid in the opening of the added trails.

We need to look at the big picture.

Thanks!

[RED5]

HUH! Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to keep my checkbook in the shuttle truck from now on, so I can pay my citation. BTW, I'm not kidding.

And in response to JamR's comment about trails not being changed, what's to change?? They're already tame as h3ll trails.

FWIW, all this is going to do, is push DH'rs onto other trails and piss off alot more people. As of right now, DH'rs stay on the outside and don't bother to many bikers inside Aliso. However, if they (try to)take away the only reasonably fun spots to ride DH in the local area, then I'm guessing it won't get pretty. Now you'll have a bunch of guys on 8"+ rigs bombing down Rock-it, Lynx and Mathis, I'm sure that's going to fun for all.

But hey whatever, makes no matter to me. I've already come to the conclusion that all these SO CALLED clubs, like SHARE and the such, have no interest in helping DH'rs find a place to ride or helping build trails for said segment of the MTB community. They seem more content to sanitise trails and make them into nothing more than just a bunch of smoothed out trails that my niece could ride on her big wheel like all the other paved parks. And since this is the case, DH'rs are going to be left with no other option than to either ride "illegal" trails or just mess it up for everyone.

In the words of my favorite giant, "It's changing out there. Just like last time. There's a storm coming, Harry. And we all best be ready when she does."

[JamR]

Originally Posted by RED5

HUH! Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to keep my checkbook in the shuttle truck from now on, so I can pay my citation. BTW, I'm not kidding.

And in response to JamR's comment about trails not being changed, what's to change?? They're already tame as h3ll trails.

FWIW, all this is going to do, is push DH'rs onto other trails and piss off alot more people. As of right now, DH'rs stay on the outside and don't bother to many bikers inside Aliso. However, if they (try to)take away the only reasonably fun spots to ride DH in the local area, then I'm guessing it won't get pretty. Now you'll have a bunch of guys on 8"+ rigs bombing down Rock-it, Lynx and Mathis, I'm sure that's going to fun for all.

But hey whatever, makes no matter to me. I've already come to the conclusion that all these SO CALLED clubs, like SHARE and the such, have no interest in helping DH'rs find a place to ride or helping build trails for said segment of the MTB community. They seem more content to sanitise trails and make them into nothing more than just a bunch of smoothed out trails that my niece could ride on her big wheel like all the other paved parks. And since this is the case, DH'rs are going to be left with no other option than to either ride "illegal" trails or just mess it up for everyone.

In the words of my favorite giant, "It's changing out there. Just like last time. There's a storm coming, Harry. And we all best be ready when she does."

I think there is a need for DHr's to have a place to ride.....but my question would be.......what are the DHr's doing about it? You can't just wait for local clubs to take the lead if they are not geared towards that sect of the mtb community.

Again....things are not simply going to happen by themselves and I'm not talking about closing Telonics....I'm talking about some of the DHr's who have a passion for that trail getting involved and seeing if they can get their favorite trail on the map.

DHr's are actually pushing themselves out of the mainstream by not getting involved.

I really find it difficult to understand this resistance from the riders who have a passion for this trail and their sport to get involved in the process and try to make their concerns heard.

It's easy to make comments like having your checkbook ready, but I remember a recent post on MTBR about a rider in SD receiving a misdemeanor citation. Not just an infraction, which is a fairly serious thing to have on your record; not to mention legal fees if you wish to fight it.

I would really like someone to explain the harm of getting a trail like Telonics legalized???????

Why the big resistance to work for legal DH trails locally?

I'm truly puzzled!

Equally puzzling is the fact that this trail is a favorite of some local icons of the mtb community who actually have some stature and status in the biking community and could probably use their status to the benefit of the DH sect locally.....yet also don't get involved.

Getting things done the right way is definitely more difficult sometimes, but I thought mountain bikers were a tough breed.....so why the reluctance to get involved in the process.

Whether they like it or not.....when push comes to shove......if the time comes for heavy enforcement......they will lose in the long run, and the sport will suffer in the long run.

If people wanted Telonics they should have been working toward its legalization long ago.....and if they wanted certain trails in AWCWP, they should have showed up in force at the public meetings and put thier .02 into the mix.

IMO....the people who knew about the meetings but sat back and did nothing have absolutely no room to complain about any potential losses.

Just get involved.

[hoovermd]

Originally Posted by RED5

... I've already come to the conclusion that all these SO CALLED clubs, like SHARE and the such, have no interest in helping DH'rs find a place to ride or helping build trails for said segment of the MTB community. They seem more content to sanitise trails and make them into nothing more than just a bunch of smoothed out trails that my niece could ride on her big wheel like all the other paved parks. ...

Huh?? Too bad you weren't on the SHARE crews yesterday at Aliso.
Significant discussion abut NOT SANITIZING the trails.

The deal with trail work is to get the water to shed off the trail so it doesn't get torn up by the erosion. Remember, the Grand Canyon was formed by water alone!

Hope you enjoy the new more narrow section at the bottom of the Rock Garden at Rock It. Many folks worked real hard carrying rocks, swinging pickaxes and using rakes and shovels to make this happen.

Too bad you hold such a low opinion of these people... they thought a lot about you. They even cleared the brush out on the right hand line so you wouldn't be surprised to find the new berm when you came bombing down.

Stay of the F'ing illegal trails and you will do us all a favor. Do the politics to get some DH trails legalized. That is how the system works. Better yet, get some of the private landowners on the fringes of AW to let you ride their property. I hear there is some great stuff there.

[ericfoltz]

Originally Posted by JamR

Again....things are not simply going to happen by themselves and I'm not talking about closing Telonics....I'm talking about some of the DHr's who have a passion for that trail getting involved and seeing if they can get their favorite trail on the map.

DHr's are actually pushing themselves out of the mainstream by not getting involved.

I really find it difficult to understand this resistance from the riders who have a passion for this trail and their sport to get involved in the process and try to make their concerns heard.

I would really like someone to explain the harm of getting a trail like Telonics legalized???????

Why the big resistance to work for legal DH trails locally?

You forget, if they worked within the system to actually accomplish something, it would ruin their "rebel" image.

And if the the trails were legalized they would not only lose their appeal but the DHrs' would no longer be able to complain about being discriminated against.

[thephat]

Just for the record,

I have heard all of the arguments being stated by JamR and others for years. I understand the validity of these arguments. In some cases, I even agree in a limited way. I am a long time supporter of SHARE and the WS. This remains to be true. I also see other points of view that they clearly lack. I try to share on these boards so that folks will not have as one sided of opinions.

When I am riding with my more outlaw type freinds, I try to influence them to understand and work with the folks they may come across. I also try to demonstrate and show the same understanding and tolerance when I am riding on XC trails and some storm trooper comes bombing down.

I stand to benefit or lose more than most from the closure or opening of trails, as my business is directly dependant on mountain biking in the OC. I am passionate about XC and DH riding in my personal life. I have lots of first hand experience with the user conflicts on the trails, as I have been in groups of hikers, XCers, and DHers for many years. I feel I have alsways acted as an ambassador to the individuals I meet on the trail regaurdless of which side of our sport I am representing at the time.

I grew up skate boarding in the 80s. We were treated as criminals everywhere. In addition to being a self serving individualist punk kid in a grown up body, I am a father, and a business man. I know that there is legitimacy to some of the points being made on the law and order follow the rules, work within the system side.

I just think that these views do not stand as universal truths.

JamR has pointed out some problems with the thinking that I tried to descibe in an earlier post. I do not deny what he says. Instead, I wish to point out that there is a problem with the situation, and any view point that you form will have problems. I could continue to try to show the flaws in his thinking, but that runs against my whole point. I see that JamR and I share many goals. I feel a real understanding and sympathy for his views.

I just don't see it as black and white, and I don't trust beauracracies, or big business. I feel Adam is putting all of his eggs in one basket that may get stomped out by the man. Futhermore, while I share in much of his agenda, and sympathise with the challenges he faces, our agreeing ends there. My agenda includes many concepts and values to which he is closed. Where we get into conflict is when I try to bring more diverse and complex understanding to the situation. I hope we can work together to extend the rights of mountain bikers. There is a place in my world for folks like Adam even if there is no place in his for folks like me.

[ericfoltz]

thephat,

One thing that should be noted is that it was skaters working within the system that got skateboarding designated as a "hazardous activity" lessening potential lawsuits and opening the doors to the creation of all the skateparks we see today.

[thephat]

Originally Posted by ericfoltz

thephat,

One thing that should be noted is that it was skaters working within the system that got skateboarding designated as a "hazardous activity" lessening potential lawsuits and opening the doors to the creation of all the skateparks we see today.

Sort of.

I think it was more business people, and insurance companies. There were definetely skaters involved. Many of these sorts of problems still exist in the skateboarding community, and in the BMX/dirt jump community.

You guys should have been at the meeting we had at the shop the other day. Carter Holland is trying to turn outlaw dirt jump areas into legit city parks. It all started when the city formed plans to doze Hidden Valley. Hidden is the place for local pro level dirt jumping. Carter is a regular at Hidden, and the founder of Blackmarket bikes. He has the support of local business, but not one regular from Hidden Valley showed up to our meeting, or to the city meeting at which Carter and an IMBA lawyer tried to ralley support. Carter is very close with the Hidden locals, and he seems conflicted. I think he is frustrated that they are not working with him, but he also sympathises with them on a level.

One of the things that came up is the Huntington Beach skate park, and how many skaters prefer to skate the high school just next door. They say that the skate park sucks...

[thistrailisntlegal?]

Once 'outlaw' trails become legal they will be sanitized. If Hidden were to become a city park the jumps would be much smaller and they would be tables not true doubles.

I'm of the mind the DH trails either need to be on private property or on a ski resort, and I know some people (dh'ers) who are working hard at making that a reality.

As much as I want Marie's or CarWreck or PG's to be legal I dread that actually happening because of the ensuing traffic.

Also, good luck at getting people to quit riding telonics so that other trails can be opened. The trail has become a 'destination' trail for many people and I seriously doubt that anybody could enforce a closure. If the authorities have any vision they would have already made this trail legal.

[maxwell]

Originally Posted by JamR

That would probably be up to the private property owner and the willingness for a trail easement.

I'm just a firm believer that many things are possible, but they just need to be worked for.

Just riding year after year on a trail with a questionable status, and not taking any serious steps to get it legitimized is not really constructive.

10 years ago no one would have believed that Stairsteps would ever be legalized, but it is now totally legal. The same with Car Wreck.........hopefully to be included in the final Aliso-Woods RRMP.

People need to be willing to ask the questions if they want to get the answers.

I just think the mountain biking community is overall better served if these questionable areas are formalized and defined........even if it's not to the liking of a relatively small group of users. We need to look at the bigger picture for the longevity of our sport, and get these questionalble trails opened to all if it's possible.

My plate is already full with a ton of other trail projects so it's time for some of the passionate users of that trail to get on the ball.

Just my .02 again.

If I remember right, 10 years ago Car Wreck was legal, along with JT's(?). And Stairsteps was the route we would take to get to LCW.
I remember when they closed them, saying that they were too "unsafe".
And I also remember when they opened Stairsteps.

I also support SHARE, and some of Adam's view's, but I have to say that I share Mr. Walling's viewpoint the most.

To this I have to add that I got slammed by a "local" for posting pics of my ride last Wenesday morning; Blackstar W/ A Little Exploring Thrown In

Did I know it was on private property? More or less.
It's owned by this group; http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?cont...&folder_id=266

Did I feel like I was "tresspassing", or making a lasting impact on the future of this trail? (not really much of a trail there) No.

Do I think that if the local DH'ers worked to get the good stuff open, would it happen? Not here in Orange County.

[dudevf1]

Originally Posted by JamR

I think there is a need for DHr's to have a place to ride.....but my question would be.......what are the DHr's doing about it? You can't just wait for local clubs to take the lead if they are not geared towards that sect of the mtb community.

Again....things are not simply going to happen by themselves and I'm not talking about closing Telonics....I'm talking about some of the DHr's who have a passion for that trail getting involved and seeing if they can get their favorite trail on the map.

DHr's are actually pushing themselves out of the mainstream by not getting involved.

I really find it difficult to understand this resistance from the riders who have a passion for this trail and their sport to get involved in the process and try to make their concerns heard.

It's easy to make comments like having your checkbook ready, but I remember a recent post on MTBR about a rider in SD receiving a misdemeanor citation. Not just an infraction, which is a fairly serious thing to have on your record; not to mention legal fees if you wish to fight it.
.

Excellent points!

The entitlement mentality is going to result in significant harm to trail access for all MTBRs. It's far more constructive to work to have designated trails for that purpose rather than "FTW, I am entitled to rip it up because I have this rig and it's who I am." Do us all a favor and just ride it off the roof of your house/apartment complex, or practice drops from an overpass off the 405, that would be more constructive.

[thistrailisntlegal?]

entitlement mentality? Hahaha, that's funny!

telling people to drop off their roofs or a 405 overpass? That's even funnier.

If you want an intelligent discourse on the issues we DH'ers face, let me know and I'll clue you in. Right now you appear to be another dick who can't see beyond their own little agenda.

[RED5]

JamR, HooverMD, EricFoltz and dudevf1 you guys make me laugh. You claim to be all about preserving the trail, YEAH RIGHT YOUR TRAILS!! But what about the rest of the MTB community?? And I use the word community loosely, since it seems to be more like to seperate parties out for themselves rather than the good of the whole. Which sadly is a huge part of the problem. XC riders don't like DH'rs because we don't show up to meetings about trail usage and they ride to fast down multi-use trails (WHICH BTW, some of your own xc breatheren are also guilty of) and DH'rs don't appear to be too fond of XC riders because they think they're all a bunch of spandex wearing wimps who think they're better than them because they earn there descent. My arguement for that is, WHO THE F*CK CARES WHAT BIKE YOU RIDE OR WHAT YOU WEAR!!! In the end we're all just going to mess it up for everyone if we cannot pull our respective heads out of our asses and see the big picture!! DH riders need to support the continued expansion of XC trails and XC riders need to help lobby for more & keeping existing trails open to DH'rs, as a COMMUNITY!!!!

Now time for a little history lesson.

You see, back in the day, I used to go to SHARE trail days with my old now defunct group, Team Basso, and when I tried to offer up suggestions on making the trails more "aggressive" I got the old response "too dangerous". FYI, all I was trying to add to the trails where some bermed sections and small jumps and drops, with included Plines. But NOOOOO, that was far to much. So I gave up!! So from my own experience SHARE doesn't give a crap about DH riding.

As for attending county meetings, I'm sure my one voice will go along ways towards saving telonics, since I'm pretty well assured that you 4 previously mentioned guys won't there to support my voice??? As will none of the rest of the XC riding "community". And sad to say but I doubt that 30 dh'rs from the local area are going to be taken seriously without the support of any local groups and that of the local community. It's a no win situation and not because we wouldn't try, but more to the point that the people in power and the local communities don't care and are too worried about liability. Rest assured that without SHARE I doubt you would still too many XC trails to ride on. Since I'm fairly certain alot of hikers and equestrians would love nothing better than to see bikers removed from all/most nature parks.

Because you see, DH is dangerous and because of this, it has been deemed unworthy